View Full Version : Shirley, you are going to laugh at me (again...)
OK so my flock is about to grow again by one more.... do I have "sucker" tatooed on my forehead or something?
Started last April with my 2 blue crowned conures, then at Christmas somebody gave me their Lutescent Cockatiel that they don't have time for anymore (but they still visit her periodically - how sweet ;) ). Then in March or so somebody gave me a bonded pair of tiels... I just put a nesting box on their cage this past week as they've been doing their thing...
Then about 6 weeks ago somebody gave me another tiel, "Sunny"... she and "Winter" (that Lutescent one I started with) are nice cage-mates... so I'm up to 6 birds in 3 cages - this is all in my LFS (aquarium store!). No they aren't for sale - they are my pets, and spoiled rotten at that...
So anyway, about 2 weeks ago, a newer customer asks me if I'm interested in his/his friend's parrot... he's not sure what it is but it's big and he keeps it in a big cage in his basement (!!!!). His friend sold the house and left the bird there, and Ed (my customer) looks after it but is afraid to handle it (previous keeper handled him) but from the sound of things he doesn't get a lot of human contact anymore.
Ed sent me pix - it's a blue and gold macaw. Looks like he has a friendly face, but seems to be missing tail feathers :( I'd pluck too if I lived alone in a basement. Ed says it's a friendly bird when he has the time for him - he lets him out of the cage to play but does not handle him.
Ed offered him to me - naturally I want to see this bird out of its lonesome environment. We pick him and his big cage up tomorrow.
My plan is to carry the bird in a cat carrier - it's the only suitable transport container I have on such short notice and my conures have travelled well in it - it's about a 20 minute ride. The cage is large and will have to go on the back of my truck. From the looks of the photos and from what the customer says, cage will need a pressure wash - I've got a pressure washer at the shop right now (belongs to a customer - long story), so we can give the cage a good cleaning. His cage will probably go in my back room at the store, at least for now, I have stands and things he can play on behind my front counter as long as he's safe/social enough - we'll have to play that by ear.
My only real reservation is removing him from his cage for transport - any tips? I'll bring a wooden perch and long sleeves and perhaps a glove although I've never used gloves before - just not knowing the bird or his personality, and anticipating he might have a few "issues"... although Ed has not indicated the bird is mean... hard to say... any insight? I believe the bird is about 10 years old - his name is Harley. He's a cutie, if I can upload a pic I will, if not I'll add it when I get to work shortly.
Help? (or am I truly insane?)
Jenn
Hi Jenny, wow! these beautiful freathered creatures are definately flowing your way. The macaw looks pretty, being kept in a basement, not a toy in sight! sad! sad! sad! grrrrr! what is wrong with the some of our human race?
As far as getting him out of the cage. Try to see if you can talk to him first and offer him to step up. Do have a towel handy in case of an fight. Once in a rare moon they will be happy to get out. Most likely his wings are not clipped so be careful no doors are open. I suggest you wear long sleves and take a thick towel and maybe a pair of gloves for a little extra protection. This is often the way you have to resort to getting a cage bound bird out. Try to toss the towel over his head and grab him securely around the back of his head to keep him from biting you, at the same time secure the rest of the towel around body, get a secure hold and bring him out. If ypu have not toweled a scared bird please look at the post Shirley has pinned it has good instructions on how to towel a bird and hold it. Use that method and try to cuddle him and talk to him once you have him secured in the towel. I had to do this with a U2 that had been abused and kept in a basement for 2 years. I worked with a lady that took him in for about 3 months. He was very cage territorial. I also helped a friend several years ago with her M2 and he came around within afew months.
Good Luck! let us know if you have any more questions.
Junkzoo
07-03-2005, 04:37 PM
Wow Jenn,When you jump in with both feet,,,,,,,,you make a big splash! LOL
You might be Ok, just gotta remember the bigger the bird,,,,,,,be careful, think of him going thru a big change here, and might not be all that happy about it,,
go slow,,,welders gloves come to mind,,,,,;) might help a bit if he decides to "unload " on you,,,try what you can to befriend the big guy, and go from there, try to read him,and don't push it,,and yup a towel could come in handy also,,
and bring some back up too,,,you might need extra hands for cage doors etc,...
sounds like you may not have a cage large enuf to transport,,hmmmm,
how about a old aquar. stand, that you can close up the open areas,,and use that to transport,,,even a larger Vari-Kennel might be in order if you can find one,,,,or order from your wholeseller,,,
work with him first ,and see how he is,,bribe with treats might help,,,soft n slow,,,
good luck , and keep us posted,,,,
(how come i never come across deals like this?,:confused: ,one day a hyacinth will cross my path,,,;) ) LOL
Heh Jeff, I have a customer with a hyacinth - he cuddles it like an infant, that bird is spoiled rotten ;)
Jean, yes I've towelled a scared bird before, although not a large one such as this. I don't think he's that big by macaw standards, looking at the cage pix (I have more pix, just did not post them all). Unless his cage is absoloutely mammoth, he's small for a macaw. Biggest, fiercest bird I've ever transported was a Great Horned Owl - I used to do wild bird rehab stuff.
We're heading out in a few minutes to get him - change of plans going there now. Bringing the cat carrier, some towels - I think I have welding gloves in my garage if I can put my hands on them - hopefully won't need that extreme measure but want to be prepared.
Wish us luck - heading back out will post update when I can.
Oh and Shirley - I have backup - JT is coming with me (I thought he'd be mad but he says he's always wanted a macaw!!! :funny: )
Cheers and thanks for the advice!
Jenn
I am glad yo know you have some experiendce with toweling birds. It is no wonder he is smaller in size. He was most likely deprived of the proper foods and care needed for full growth. Please, keep us posted as to how things so. I am excited for both of you.
We're back. JT is outside pressure washing the cage, and I've gone through 2 1/2 bottles of Canopy Quick Clean trying to get the poop off :(
Removal was not so bad - he was frightened, and so was I but no towelling was necessary. I used my small transport cage - he has no long wing feathers and no tail feathers so he's quite small in appearance. His weight looks OK, he's not thin, his vent appears clean - hard to see 'fresh' droppings to see of anything was amiss - there was so much poop, flies.... horrible. He was in a basement that got a bit of human traffic - more since the keeper's dog just had puppies. Stink... I'm used to 'bird smell' but this was a sour kind of smell and it's stuck in my nostrils.
When we arrived the keeper had the cage door open and Harley was sitting on it. First thing I noticed is the absence of proper perches. There was one large calcium perch and a swing but no wooden perches etc., so I'm going to have to get those. He menaced me a bit and his keeper (not his owner and not someone he's bonded with) but didn't bite. We talked to him for a bit and tried to get a feel for his personality - he's quite comical really but needs to re-learn some manners. I did put on a welding glove and a sweatshirt, chased him slowly around the top of the cage for a bit before he finally decided to co-operate and step on the large wooden perch I brought, and we lowered him into the transport cage. Whew.
He travelled oh so quietly in the truck on the way back and sat in the transport cage quietly in the shop while I helped JT unload the cage... ugh it's nasty and I need a bath now in the worst way :( He's out there now... bless him - pressure washing the thing... says I owe him BIG!
A little while I go I coaxed Harley out of the transport cage, again using the wooden perch, and he's now making himself at home on my parrot stand. I have already learned that he likes pistachios I picked a few out of my parrot mix and have bribed him with 3 of them. He's quietly saying "Hello" every few minutes, and looking around. All things considered, he's doing just great for having been through a big move just now.
Even though both Harley and I were both nervous during removal, he did not try to bite me to hurt me. He has mouthed me a bit - yes I'm mindful of the power of his beak but he has not tried to harm me in any way - although he has "tasted me" a bit ;) I think we're both a bit apprehensive but he seems to have a pleasant disposition - he's just not entirely sure what's going on.
I took a few pictures of him - a few "Before" shots - this bird needs some serious rehab - his feathers are a mess. I'll post one of his back so you can see and if anyone has advice, please let me know. I'm assuming he's picked but his breast feathers are good, head feathers are good, just his wings and tail are horrible - he almost looks "greasy". I want to give him a bath - he stinks but I want to get him a bit settled before I go upsetting him with that. I do have some Canopy "bird bath" spray, if he's willing I may spray him down a bit and see if he can preen himself. I did not see any but a few feathers on the floor in his room but I don't know they may have tidied it a bit before I got there. The bottom of the cage had been removed but it was so caked with feces... I've let my cages get a bit grungy before but this was ridiculous!
I'm going to go help JT with the scrubbing of the cage - pressure washer is getting most of it but needs a bit of "elbow grease". God bless JT for helping me with this - I couldn't have done it alone that's for sure.
With everyone's help here I think Harley's life is about to get much better!
Jenn
Awww,poor Harley, he really chewed those wing and tail feathers. Thank goodness, you got him out of his old home. The more misting and showers you can give him the better off he will be. Hopefully a good diet and good care with lots of showers will do most of the trick. No amount of feather chewing is good, but it's a good sign he has not plucked his cest or begin to self mutilate. So far he's sticking to chewing the large feathers. Hopefully, with good care he will come around.
:thanx: for sharing him and his pics. Please, keep us posted on how he does.
So you think it's chewing? That would make sense. I tried to get a pic of him stretching his wings but wasn't fast enough.
He's really a pleasant bird, I think he'll be awesome once he re-learns some basic commands - stepping up isn't his strong suite but he seems to have some balance problems.
I'm home now about to hit the rain locker - I had some larger bird toys that had been given to me so I decorated his cage with some rope ladders and stuff. I don't have any large perches in my bucket of tricks so I'll order some tonight and will have them in a couple of days. He likes that swing that was in his cage - his "best" perch really - he climbed up on that and was swinging himself. When he'd slow down, he'd grab the side of the cage to 'push' the swing some more. He looked content when I left him - he's at the shop and we'll be there early tomorrow.
When I got him to step up from the stand to the wood perch to return him to his cage, he nearly lost his balance and travelled to the cage hanging upside down by feet and beak. I can really see now how a tail works as "ballast" to balance the bird. Sad :(
I also noticed what I think is a bit of blood - I thought I noticed it on the perch when I removed him from his former home - and I noticed a bit on the perch and on me when I moved him back to his cage. Not in the feces - they appeared fine - he pooped a few times while he was on the stand, I had paper down on the stand - I'm no poop expert but they didn't look out of the ordinary - and no blood in them. But I noticed a few drops when I moved him and I am presuming they are coming from his feathers.
Hopefully I can keep him occupied and entertained enough that he stops chewing :( I did provide some wood and rope toys for him to gnaw on, and I'll get some more stuff - I was just lucky enough to have some stuff that was too big for my conures - one of the perks of being in the pet biz is that sales people like to bribe you with freebies - and they love to ply me with bird toys!! :funny:
One "bright side" (if you can call it that) is that with his feathers in such poor condition, his flying away was not a concern.
Unfortunately the other keeper didn't seem to realize that this bird's appearance was not what it should be. He did admit he doesn't know much about the bird, or birds in general.
He did have him on a good quality pellet diet - Kaytee - I forget what "formula" but it was pellets. He did say he'd offered the bird fruit and peanut butter (!!) the bird would eat the peanut butter and toss the fruit. I don't know how often this was offered but I suspect it wasn't often.
Any suggestions for what fruits/veggies to offer? The mix I have has dried banana chips in it, he threw them away... but then again, it's soon yet and he was nervous. He did take 3 pistachios from me and tossed a peanut (expensive taste!).
I really think we did a good thing today, getting him. Wish I'd done it a couple of weeks ago when the guy first mentioned he'd like to part with the bird...
Jenn
icebear
07-03-2005, 10:08 PM
Check the bottom of his feet if he'll let you, if he's only had a concrete perch and that swing -- i think i have seen those before and they have a fairly rough texture on the part they stand on-- he might have a sore on his foot that opens up now and again, just in case its not from his feathers. If he is hesitant to step-up, it might have something to do with it. But its just a guess....
So glad to hear another sweetie has found a better place to live. I don't understand how a person could just leave an animal, if i HAD to part with any of mine, i would make their new home a priority. I simply don't understand that.
Shirley
07-03-2005, 10:29 PM
Hi Jenn...
I'm just now reading all of this... wow! Sorry I missed it earlier... I personally wouldn't consider Kaytee the best for a macaw... Harrisons or Roudybush, then Zupreem... and as many veggies as he'll accept.
A trip to a qualified AVIAN vet is in order for complete blood workup... $$ yes, but necessary. He could be experiencing any number of things... anemic, high or low in any number of areas, and you need to know now, not later. Up here, about $270 or maybe a little less.
Bath: Swish some Dawn dish soap in with water, diluted, and get that rubbed in good against his skin and feathers if you can, wash him like a greased duck from an oil slick, then rinse like crazy, luke-warm coolish water, until all the Dawn is out completely. Us the Dawn only once, then fresh water bath once a week with mistings inbetween daily and watch him to see how the plucking behavior is. (Dawn is what is used - not any other brand - on the oil-slick-stricken birds) Use a hand-held shower sprayer like you use for washing a dog.
Also, be aware he is not biting now b/c you are new. He may well nail you or suddenly bond to you and nail JT in a few days.
Congratulations for taking him in -- he's very lucky to have been found by you!
:heart:
Shirley
His feet looked fine - he "danced" a bit on his cage before I took him away - and I did not see any problems - no knobs, sores, no old crooked toes or anything like that. Only found the spots when he flapped his sorry little wings :( I'll get a closer look in the morning. The perch wasn't concrete - it was kind of chalky, smooth, not like those concrete rough ones. I have one of those in my conure cage as well as a calcium one - they don't stand on it often, but I have a variety of shapes/sizes/widths of perches in their cage and that seems to work for them.
His beak is in good shape - not overgrown and his bite looks straight. I was able to tease him a bit by grabbing his beak and wiggling it a bit - I do this with my conures and years ago I used to visit a pet store macaw every day and I did this, with Carlos, the pet store bird, I could eventually blow raspberries into his beak and he'd laugh for me.
Harley also says, "Hello" and his name, and when I laughed he laughed too. I'd bet he's got a decent vocabulary and I was surprised he talked so quickly - my male conure is so shy he still won't talk in front of me but I can chat with with him across the room! :funny:
I also laughed too - when I brought Harley into the shop he made some flock calls at first and when Pepe, my female blue crowned conure, heard him, she started showing off, by clicking, saying hello and "scratch scratch"... something tells me she was jealous :funny: She always does that when there's a new bird around - she's such an attention ho ;)
Scott phoned me a while ago - he stopped by the store on his way home and noticed the new addition - he was talking to Harley and Harley was calling him, and Scott said he was swinging on his swing.
I know I'll be going to work very early tomorrow (yep, open on the 4th) just to see how Harley is and perhaps bring him behind the counter on the stand to get some attention. Going to definitely try for a bath tomorrow too.
OH and he let me scratch his head too - he let me do this when I was removing him from the transport cage - he was biting down on the perch, so I petted his head gently and scratched his neck a bit he seemed to like that, and later when he was on the stand he let me stroke his head and scratch his neck a bit.
All things considered, he seems to be a very trusting bird so far.
Jenn
Shirley
07-03-2005, 10:34 PM
I can't remember if the complete blood workup here is $270 or $170...
Good to know about the bath... when I'm brave I'll try it. ;)
I do have a friend who is a qualified avian vet - he's also a reefkeeper so that works out well ;) He keeps an eye on my other feathered buddies and yes I think a full exam is probably in order. My other birds came to me in good health and feather so I never had to worry much but this guy has some issues. Ron usually visits me, so hopefully he'll come over to examine him, if not I'll bring him in to the clinic. Ron has a RB2 and a tiel ;)
I will proceed with caution where Harley and biting are concerned - I do think he has a good disposition - Ed said so all along and he had been well handled by his owner before. He didn't seem as fearful as I would have expected .. but we'll wait and see.
I just can't wait for him to start looking/feeling better. Such a gorgeous sweet bird - deserves better than he's had.
Jenn
I can't remember if the complete blood workup here is $270 or $170...
I'm lucky - Ron and I trade goods/services. I think nowadays I prolly get a "volume discount"! He's never charged me for beak/nail trims when he's in the shop to visit. He did stitch my daughter's cat together in January after a fight - trading out for that bill - late night surgery and the works $380. :eek:
I'll drop him a line or call him on Tuesday to see when he can see Harley.
Jenn
Shirley
07-03-2005, 10:45 PM
Macaws tend to be a one person bird... so be that person... Once he's chosen his person, you may not be able to switch him back to you if he chooses someone other than you.
I will. I've let him know that I'm not afraid of him (much!) Once I got him to the shop and comfy on the stand, he was quite social. If I left the room he was quiet for the most part but did say "hello" when I returned. I talked to him and showed him some attention - if he nipped I turned my back. He seemed very interested in whatever I was doing - when I took pictures each time I tried to photograph his back he turned around to face me :) I'll be his primary caretaker and I intend to keep him behind the counter with me on his stand during business hours - his cage may have to stay in the back room - it's huge - over 6' tall (maybe 7'?) and about 4' long and 2' wide. Since I don't want him alone all day (flock calling would drive me nuts anyway!), and since the cage is so bulky, the stand behind the counter is probably my best bet - he's close to me, and out of harm's way, and far from curious customers who don't know any better than to put their fingers in his reach (some people are SO stupid that way!). So far all my birds have been fine with me - one of my tiels seems to prefer Scott but doesn't dislike me - she just rather would be with somebody else :funny:
Just like with the others, I'll do my best to try to communicate to them that I'm their "friend" and we'll see what happens. I did tell this man that if things did not work out (if the bird hated me or whatnot) that I'd call him to take him back but after that, I know that's not an option anymore. I have a friend who breeds bigger birds, and if for some reason he couldn't fit in, I'd call her - either she could give him a home or know of one for him. However, I don't think it will come to that - but we'll take it one day at a time and see.
He's a cutie - I'm sure he'll love it at my place ;)
Jenn
Shirley
07-04-2005, 12:11 AM
:emot-danc Super! Call Jeff if you need a home for him... you don't want him going to a breeder... :(
I can't remember if the complete blood workup here is $270 or $170...
It's 400.00 here!! :( But, a lot of things are higher here.
I am glad he is opening up to you. If you family socialize him from the beginning it will help. Shirley is right, A macaw is often a one person bird, it's good if he will let others handle him. If he can bond to you and also accept others caring and playing with him, that will be great!
He sounds like a lot of fun!!:heart:
Ginny
07-04-2005, 01:11 AM
Jenn,
I am so glad you were able to get that B&G. I think he will be fine with a lot of TLC. Take your time. We got our B&G from another couple but they had her for all of her live about 14 years and she was in Wonderful shape. There is so much to tell you. But first of all I would take it to a vet and make sure there isn't any medical reason for the feather chewing. I would also get it on a better diet. Pellets are ok but they do need other food more. I would give him a bowl of a bunch of different chopped up veg. and a little fruit each morning and then throw out what it doesn't eat after about an hour or 2 and then give it some pellets and a few nuts. The do need a little more fat in their diet then other bird. I would make like a salad each day. If the first few days he throws it out try again. He might just be throwing it because it is different. Mine lives warm scrambled egg. Also some times they live the veg. warm and not cold.
When we first brought our B&G home she went to everyone and was so happy to see anyone. But after a few weeks and she got to feel more at home she chose my husband and then me. She will go to my boys if we go camping and she figures out they are the only ones in the house. She is scared of strangers but she went right to Troy and sat on Steve's knee and Shirley and I went shopping and she walked around with Steve while we were gone. I don't think the people that had her before took her out much to see other people. We are trying to get her use to a harrness and use to meeting other people.
Feel free to ask or eamil me if you have any questions and I will help you out any way I can.
I really appreciate all the feedback - keep it coming!
After "sleeping on" Shirley's bath suggestion - I have a question... the bird just "looks" greasy - I don't think he is greasy. The feathers I touched did not feel greasy, but the chewed ends of his feathers have a ratty, caked look. Is a soapy bath still indicated? I'm thinking not but wanted to double check first. I can see it being indicated if he had some kind of stuff on him but I think it's just naturally occuring 'yuck' from his chewing. I did pet under one of his wings a bit and didn't feel anything weird - but I didn't get to touching the matted feathers. He has some downy ones growing in, and around his head he has some new feathers coming in - let's hope we can solve the chewing bit and get that plumage looking good.
I'll be calling Ron first thing tomorrow to get him in for a checkup. I'll post the results when I know them. I was concerned too about any ailment he may have and I am keeping him apart from my other birds, and there is no shared equipment etc. He hasn't been around other birds in who knows how long so I doubt he's got any contagians but better safe than sorry - and if he has any mites or anything I don't want those passed on.
Heading overt to the store shortly - keep the info coming, please, and I'll post my progress. I think I have some apples and stuff in the fridge at work - my conures like bananas - ;) Going to try making him a fruit kabob or something this morning and see how he does. Ed said he always put peanut butter on the fruit (eww too salty!), and he tossed the fruit. I'm going to skip the peanut butter and see if he goes for just the fruit.
I am going to mist him down today too. I don't have a shower at the store, just a sink with a sprayer that works fine for smaller birds - not sure how to handle that with him - I may try to bring him home for a shower in my shower stall but I'm torn between traumatizing him too much, and getting him taken care of asap. Guess I'll "wing" that one ;) Stay tuned!
Jenn
Jenn, bless you for taking him in, he's lucky to have found you, he looks a cutie!
Persevere with the veggies and fruit, they don't always take it straight away.
Good luck.
Junkzoo
07-04-2005, 09:07 AM
Call Jeff if you need a home for him...
:eek: :ohmy: :scratchch :foot-tap:
Well,,,,ok, if you gotta,,,LOL;)
But i think you will be ok with Harley,,,unless he turns into psycho birdie,,,,
but i think you are makin' great progress with him so far, so early,,,,
WoW Jenn. yes you do really have a flock following... Good luck with him!
Shirley
07-04-2005, 09:59 AM
The Dawn bath is advice from an Avian vet... our hands have oils... he is a mess and has been in a basement and is chewing his feathers... and there's a reason he's doing that... first a good shower, get the crud off, if he were a white cockatoo, you'd probably see a LOT of grey, and then get a full feather picker blood panel done... this is expensive b/c much of it is sent to a lab in California... and rinse the Dawn off really well, it won't hurt him... misting won't clean him... Wish I could be there to help you... I"ll call you later... :tighthug:
Skyler gets a Dawn bath once a month due to feather picking, but he's a cockatoo and produces powder. Harley likely won't need that, but he will likely need a soaking shower once to twice a wk if he's chewing his feathers, and a good misting after he finishes his breakfast each mid-morning... and as much out of cage time as possible... and PLENTY of large soft chunks of wood to chew... and stiff paper rolls to chew, like empty adding machine tape rolls. And full adding machine tape rolls to unravel and rip up. Lots of shreadding things... maybe a full roll of T-paper to rip up instead of feathers.
You'll do fine!
Interesting toy ideas ;) I've got some adding machine rolls that don't fit my printer - I can give him one of those. The ones for my register are thermal paper with plastic spools so I'll not use those.
I save the large cardboard spools from aquarium background - a customer of mine works for Gorilla Haven and I give them to her for "Joe" to play with - Kelly puts treats inside the spool and Joe has to pick off the plastic end and retrieve the treat -- kind of like a "Gorilla Kong"! Perhaps I'll keep a spool or two for Harley. Hopefully Joe will understand :funny: Yep - we are regular zookeepers here -- Kelly's husband works for the Kangaroo Conservation center - we're all about the critters here! :eek: :agree:
Yes I will get the full blood workup for Harley and a complete physical, stool culture, the works (I've watched Ron perform these exams before) - I emailed Ron this morning - if he doesn't get the mail today he'll get it first thing and he'll be in touch to set an appointment for Harley. Yeah I wish you were here to help with the Dawn bath too... it's a bit of a daunting undertaking... perhaps Ron can help me with that when I take him in? He's good at that sort of thing, and of course has the appropriate training and experience, and a facility to do that. He might also have medicated soap or whatnot? If I was sure the bird would allow me, I'd bring him home and put him in the tub with the hand shower and give him a good workover just like the dog :funny: but something tells me that would go over like a lead balloon at this point. I want to earn his trust - and I'd rather have him "hate" Ron than me, if that makes sense?
I did give him some wood toys with cotton rope that I had at the shop - good chewy things if he's interested in them. I will have him out of the cage for most of the day today and I will be watching for him picking/chewing feathers and I'll attempt to distract him if he does this.
I have a feeling that most of this was out of sheer boredom. He had a couple of jute toys in the cage but nothing to really sink his beak into. That and not much contact, probably left him with hours of nothing to do and nothing to amuse him. All our birds at the shop get lots of attention - regular customers make the rounds to talk to each bird - so I'm sure Harley will be welcomed and lavished with lots of people talking to him. We keep physical contact to a minimum with all our birds/customers for obvious liability reasons as well as for the well-being of the birds, but occasionally they get to interact with people we know well - as a result my birds are quite social with almost anyone - ONCE they get familiar with them.
Hopefully if Harley's health checks out, we'll provide him with enough stimulation to keep him from chewing his feathers. And if his health does not check out, I'm sure Ron can help me get him back into the pink.
On my way to the shop in a few...
Jenn
Hmmm well Harley does NOT like to be misted. Something tells me that was a punishment to him. I prepared a nice bottle of warm water and as soon as I approached him for this, he jumped down off the stand and ran along the floor to get away :(
Hrmm...
Jenn
Shirley
07-04-2005, 11:45 AM
A lot of birds have been punished with a misting bottle. :(
They tolerate a shower much better... in time. Have Ron do it... with Dawn, NOT medicated shampoo. He'll know that. NOT dog or cat shampoo. Dawn is approved for birds.
Then make the misting a fun thing and do it anyway... he'll learn it's not punishment.
We saw/cut the long cardboard rolls in sections per bird size for them so chew.
Chewing feathers can begin from boredom, then turn into OCD behaviors which spark pheromone releases which then become very difficult behaviors to stop. Misting and showers help, and hopefully you don't have to turn to anti-depressant OCD drug therapy. We haven't yet with Skyler, and hopefully never will. Diet also helps... depending on the causes. There's rarely one cause.
Holly does not like showers STILL. She has a beak that can lay your arm open. I place her on the tub floor and spray her down really well all over as she walks around. If she were getting Dawn, which she doesn't need, I would pour the premixed solution over and under her, avoiding her head area completely, and then rub it in her lower body neck down with a towel over her head to avoid the beak, and then rinse really well. Have Ron do this the first time with Harley. Likely he will only need one Dawn shower, being macaws are not a powder-producing bird like a 'too is. Skyler's over-production of extra-sticky moist powder is the reason he has to have a Dawn shower once a month. He's "OK" with it. Holly used to hate mistings, now she comes forward and asks for them when she sees me with the misting bottle.
Hello Jenn
I'll jump in here for a second and give some of my thoughts on this. I like the Dawn for cleaning Harley up. As already stated it is used by people with more knowledge than me about this stuff for washing all type of birds. I would think it is one of, if not the safest, to try first.
It's possible, and I sure hope this is it, that Harley is over preening/chewing his feathers because they don't feel/look right to him. My thoughts/experience is plumage is a VERY important part of a birds life. Wild birds keep feathers in tip top shape for many reasons, flight (survival), attract a mate, keep warm or cool, etc... I'm sure we all get this concept. Hopefully Harley will get his self worth back and come around.
I'll go out on a limb here.... Sometimes a bird needs to get over his/her "learned helplessness". I'm not against socializing a bird, it has it's place. The flip side is the bird also needs to know that he has a place in life and is respected by humans. I've seen birds with feather damage do a complete turn around, when as some might say, "the bird as become aggressive". Maybe, no real scientific proof here, being aggressive is a good thing for "some birds". Maybe they feel like they have more control or choices in their life.
One last thing. You have little choice about the shower/bath, but, birds learn quickly that it is not always the human (person performing the undesirable) but the tool or thing is undesirable in any ones hand. Hence... If I would towel your bird for a nail trim he would also be fearful of anyone with towel and or nail clippers in hand. As I said you have little choice here but I had to say it because I hear so much about let him/her be the bad guy. That's true but...
Just my 2 cents
All the best
Jim
Shirley
07-04-2005, 11:56 AM
Thank you JIM!
If I'm understanding your point ... I've YET to have ANY of my birds BLAME me for anything I've done to or with them. I have not "taken a long time" to get them "used" to procedures... a full shower happens, a full nail trim w/dremel... etc. Then next time.. it's almost easy, and next time... even easier. And they are sweet as can be as soon as it's over. Holly doesn't bite me during a shower... she just doesn't like it one bit. But I'm NOT afraid, either, and if fear is a factor on your part... then wait for Ron.
And birds have to "win" and be dominant on some things and I just let it slide. Don't sweat the unimportant stuff. Holly is "regal" and "queenly" in her pics because she, well, IS. But she isn't a "brat" or mean at all. She's respected, and she knows it.
We're making some progress. I don't open the store for a few minutes yet and I've been able to spend a couple of hours with him getting used to me/us. Scott is talking to him now, JT is in the back working. Harley is on the stand right beside me here at the front counter (Shirley - you know the layout of the store so you know where he's at.)
I did mist him some more - twice. He's not cleaning himself up - he did shake a few times but he's not preening himself at this point. Perhaps that's not a bad thing, given his tendency to chew. He protested (wow he's loud!), but I persisted then rewarded him with some cut up bits of apple and banana, which he seems to like. I put this in the treat cup on the stand, and a nice bowl of water and he took a long drink. He's got clean water in his cage, and food but he didn't seem to mess with it overnight or this morning. Scott saw him late last night - he was swinging on his swing and then hanging upside down. He's quite an acrobat on aparatus he's used to, but out of his element he has balance problems - I'm sure it's the lack of wing and tail feathers, because I can see him move his "tail" but there's nothing there to stabilize him. Poor dude.
So he's had a bit of a shower and some good grub. He's talking to me now, softly repeating, "Hi Harley" and I'm repeating that, he wolf-whistled at me first thing this morning, and I made some clicking sounds and he repeated them. Ed said that Harley doesn't like clicking sounds - hard for me not to do that, I click to all my birds - used to click at Carlos the pet store parrot ages ago and he loved to click back. Ed said that clicking agitated him but he didn't seem agitated when I did it. We also did a bit of head bobbing ;) Somebody at the gas station gave me a funny look :funny: I guess they can't see Harley as he's on the other side of me! :lol:
So for now he's my sidekick, I'm just talking with him and letting him get used to me. He's staring at me a lot, watching me, chattering to me - that's good I guess :) He's not picking as he sits - we're just chatting and he's having some quiet time. I think I'll just keep him close today and see how we progress.
I have not handled him except on the perch. I've played with his beak a bit, have not been able to scratch his head yet today - baby steps. Want him to feel comfortable with me around before I try anything too drastic. He seems to just be liking the attention. He's shouted a few times, I've turned my back but when he talks quietly and softly I respond. He's doing more quiet talking now and no shouting :)
Jenn
Yes fear is a factor - I admit I'm afraid here... but I'm learning quickly. He's nipped a bit but doesn't seem to have intent - if he did he'd have got me by now :)
As soon as I can get him in to Ron's hopefully we'll have more answers. Meantime, I have to say that his living conditions have improved 100 % since this time yesterday. His cage is clean, he has good food, fresh fruit, fresh water, and companionship. We'll get his health issues seen to as soon as possible :) I'd try the shower/Dawn bath but I'd need some backup and I appear the be the bravest one here :) I've touched him -nobody else has!
Jenn
Shirley
07-04-2005, 01:06 PM
Sounds good, Jenn. I'd keep him away from the others... quarantine is a bit late, I'm assuming no mites? never can tell... use the hand sterilizer between birds.
You be the one to touch and care for him until the bond is set, as you're going to be his primary care-taker, and you're the bird person there.
We're all here to help and support the best we can... And Ginny, Jim, Marie, and I can't remember who all else have macaws here can help you out. Sadenna has LOTS of experience, too!
~ Shirley
More progress... I can pet him now. First couple of times he "held" the wood perch in his beak while I stroked his head and back. He did not bite down on it - just kind of rested his beak on it - that made sure his beak was 'busy' instead of nipping at me. Once he realized he liked being stroked by me, I moved the perch away and he let me approach him and stroke him again. He likes the booty scratch, having his neck feathers scratched. I guess we're both getting used to one another and he's becoming a bit more trusting of me.
Luckily it's a painfully quiet day here, so he's getting used to his surroundings without a bustle of people. There have been a few people in the door - he's starting to 'announce' them ;) when they arrive - just like my other birds :funny:
Have not seen any picking/chewing. He did preen himself a bit but I watched him... he just "arranged" his feathers a bit.
It's funny - his head and breast feathers appear fine - it's just the wing and tail feathers that have taken a beating.
Jenn
Ginny
07-04-2005, 02:22 PM
Jenn,
I am sure it will all work out fine. It will take some time. Taco has been with us for a year now and she comes out of her shell more and more each day. Harley will have to have some time and space but you will have to make some boundaries after a while. He will be like a little 2 year old that never grows up LOL.
If you want your vet to help you with the bath the first time to let you see how to do it that would be a good thing. Now Bacardi doesn't like a spray bottle at all but likes one of those bottles that put out a fine mist. It takes a little longer to get her wet but that is what she likes. Taco hates a spray bottle and the mister. Her owner use to give her a shower with one of those had held sprayers in the shower.....we don't have one so we take her in the shower and cover her head a little with our hand so the water doesn't come down righ on her head and she loves it. As for Harley he ..... if you have one of those hand held shower things on your tub he might feel safer if you put a towel down on the bottom of the tub and let him stand there and then use the hand held shower on him but not on the head right at first until he gets use to it. Our amazon use to love to walk around on the floor of the shower. We would turn it on but not hard and she would run all around in the water. She would run under the water and then run to the other side with wings out the whole time.
A lot of times bird feel real vulnerable when wet because they can't fly when wet and with him not having good balance he might not feel safe on a perch getting wet. You will have to just try some different things to see what he likes best and if he doesn't like any of them .....well then you find what is the best for you. It is so important that they get a bath and misting. It will do so much for the feathers coming in and looking good when they do come in.
It is just like a new baby. You seem to have a good feel for birds so I am sure you will do just fine. As for the blood work it is a matter of the health of the bird also. If they don't eat right they can have medical problems just like we can. Also a lot of birds are allergic to some of the stuff in pellets like the dyes and preservatives.
Dark green leafy vag. and other veg. are better then a lot of fruit. Fruit is good but it does have sugar so not a lot of that. Sweet potatoes are good and have lots of vit. You can buy all kids of veg. and cut them up and see what he likes the best. He might like warm food better and then you can steam all the vegies and serve them warm. He might like that also. Some warm sweet potatoes with some chopped up nuts on top he would probably love. You can also take some of those soft taco shells and make some scrambled egg with some vegies in it and roll it in that and cut them in half. They can hold that in their foot and eat it.
Good luck and let us know how he is doing. I am sure you will do just fine.
Ginny
07-04-2005, 02:31 PM
Yes fear is a factor - I admit I'm afraid here... but I'm learning quickly. He's nipped a bit but doesn't seem to have intent - if he did he'd have got me by now :)
As soon as I can get him in to Ron's hopefully we'll have more answers. Meantime, I have to say that his living conditions have improved 100 % since this time yesterday. His cage is clean, he has good food, fresh fruit, fresh water, and companionship. We'll get his health issues seen to as soon as possible :) I'd try the shower/Dawn bath but I'd need some backup and I appear the be the bravest one here :) I've touched him -nobody else has!
Jenn
Jenn that nipping is normal. Taco will do that if I go to pet her and she is not in the mood. He will give out a little yell at you or lunge at you before she would ever bite. Good luck you are doing just fine. You will be hugging each other in a few days. :tighthug:
He's funny :) Now that he's trusting me a bit, he is an attention ho! :funny:
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, 4 of my other bird were having a par-tay over at the Conures' residence! :dance:
UncleJT
07-04-2005, 05:20 PM
Jenn and Harley are making good progress. "Step Up" still is difficult but I think it's more of a balance issue because of his missing tail.
Ginny
07-04-2005, 10:21 PM
:dance: Wow what great news. It looks like things are coming right along with the 2 of you. Keep up the good work. The more you work with him the more he will trust you. :tighthug:
Shirley
07-05-2005, 02:28 AM
Jenn -- your pics are saying it all -- you're doing GREAT and Ginny gave you excellent help and great recipes and diet advice!
Keep the pics coming! :thumbup:
Thanks, Shirley and Ginny for the encouragement ;) I really appreciate everyone's help and suggestions. I really think he's a sweet bird - given what he's been through I pretty much expected him to be mistrustful and obnoxious but he's opening up quite nicely.
Like JT said - we think he's reluctant to step up because he's really having balancing problems. You can see his tail bobbing up and down as ballast but with no "weight" (feathers) on it and he's really having problems. On his cage he's pretty nimble but he's used to moving around on it. He nearly fell off the stand twice when we tried to get him to step up. He needs to bite down to get a grip so for now we're using the welding glove and the wood perch so he *can* get up without hurting us. Perch goes away as soon as he's on our hand - glove is a necessary evil until he doesn't need it to pull himself on. I inadvertently brought my arm closer to my body while he was on it and that's when he grabbed on to my shirt with one foot and snuggled right in *g*... I was a bit afraid he'd take a bite but he didn't (and glad I wasn't wearing any jewellry - he did take an interest in my shirt buttons!) Later, JT got him to step up, and he attempted to crawl right up on JT's shoulder! We stopped him from doing that - don't want him that "high up" at this point, plus I think JT was nervous about maybe losing an ear :funny: but Harley was just fine.
I'm about to head over to the shop - I have a quick errand to run and when I return I'll call Ron as I've not had a reply to the email. If Ron can't see him today, I might get brave and try the Dawn bath myself - I'd like to get that done ASAP, but we'll see. I'm pleased with the progress both Harley and I have made!
Jenn
Harley goes in to see Ron at noon today... stay tuned!
Jenn
SadennaAndFlock
07-05-2005, 01:23 PM
Sounds like you are making great progress, take things slow one thing at a time..as for food give him anything and everything that would be good for him see what he likes and doesn't like offer a wide variety of veggies maybe some warm cooked foods like beak appetite or crazy corn or even simple warm mashed sweet potato..I think everyone here has about covered it for advice I don't have much to give ya as they have already said it :) if he is allowing a misting try 100% aloe juice in the sprayer with warm ater this will realive any itching he has that may cause the chewing. can't wait to her more about his progress and pictures.....hopefully more will be reveled in blood work to know exactly whats going on with him healthy wise.
Just back from the vet. Ron's running some tests, but Harley was an excellent patient, and Ron does not expect to find any surprises in the test results. He's confident that the feather chewing was a result of boredom, and as the advice given here - he suggested lots of forraging toys and things to chew, and to try to distract him if we see him chewing.
He weighs 1083 grams - reading I've done says they average 1000-1200 grams so that's good :) His head and breast feathers looked fine so as long as we can keep him from chewing those primaries they should grow back. Ron did trim off some of the rattier looking stubs, hoping the smoother ends will encourage him to leave them alone, but Ron reminded me that feather chewing can be like nail-biting or other bad habits and it takes time to break such habits. Harley looks a bit better already - not so many ratty bits off his wings and tail.
Otherwise, he's doing fine, and Ron will probably want to see him again in a month or so, unless test results indicate otherwise. We picked up some Harrison's High Potency Coarse pellet for him too, Ron says that should help things a bit, along with lots of greens.
He did not think a Dawn bath was indicated. He did bath him in water - Harley doesn't mind a pan of water, but does NOT like the misting bottle - so we'll just do that. My other birds love the misting bottle. Either way I can work with that :)
So no immediate concerns other than the plucking/chewing!
Jenn
Thanks for the update, I am glad he's looking good. I agree, chances are many preening and chewing toys will distract him from future chewing.
Another thing that often helps is is hanging a whisk broom, they are aften very good for a bird to preen that has been doing a lot of feather chewing. Some even get good results from drilling a hole through a phone book and hanging it in the cage along with some good chewable wood, calculator tape and empty cardboard boxes. I try to keep a cardboard box on Elvie's platop most of the time. He absolutely loves to gets inside them to chew.
I'll put a box in his cage. I've also got an adding machine roll for him to shred. That is a hit - I just put a roll of paper in the seed cup on his stand and he's shredding that as I type this! I did already put some larger parrot toys I had on hand in his cage and there are some bite marks in them already so that tells me he's using them ;) I rummaged around my back room and found a few more. My conures and tiels all have toys but none are really too big on playing with them. I clean and rotate them around but they still don't fuss much with them. Conures like their peanut feeder - I give them peanuts once in a while for them to pry out of the feeder but that and a bell are about the only toys they seem to care for.
We also just got back from Home Depot where we got a piece of handrail and a thick dowel to place in his cage as perches - different shapes and sizes than what's in there now. My neighbour has a table saw so we'll cut them to size and notch the ends so they will fit snugly and securely in the cage.
Ron was able to handle him quite easily, and now he's even more calm with me. I was actually able to blow a raspberry or two into his beak a little while ago :) and he gave me some kisses :funny: He's more confident with stepping up too, not needing the wood perch - however he still has balance issues so we're letting him grab our shirts or the glove with his beak to balance himself but he's more willing to step up now.
I'm amazed at how fast he's 'remembering' ... he must have been well loved and well handled at some point for him to be this trusting and sweet.
Jenn
Shirley
07-05-2005, 04:13 PM
Excellent! Did he advise how often to give him a soaking shower?
I am glad to hear he's doing so well. Balance issues, no wonder, he may improve with proper perches and getting out of his cage. I've heard, having a good playtime on the floor can also help to inprove that. Good Luck!
Since Harley doesn't seem to like being sprayed, he suggested a pan of water for him to play/me to bath him. He didn't mind having the water scooped by hand and poured on him and he got a good soaking that way. Ron said once or twice per week should do for now. Since I don't have a shower here... just a sink sprayer, that might be easier for the time being, although I could put the pan on the floor and spray him down with the sink sprayer... we'll see. He had a good bath today, and between that, the 'haircut' that Ron gave him and the bit of preening I've been doing with him, he looks a bit better already. He's got some new feathers coming in and I have been preening the sheaths off the new feathers when I scratch him or pet him :funny:
He's in his cage right now, I put up some more toys and I rigged an adding machine tape with a cotton rope through it on a swivel snap that's hanging in his cage. He's been picking a bit this afternoon but when I see him do that, I go and distract him with toys. A bit work-intensive but seems to help. Like it's been said - it's a habit as much as anything and it will take some time to break that habit.
Here's today's pix... playing with his paper and having a quiet snuggle on the couch ;)
Jenn
I've found the "right" toy! Just like a kid - you can spend hundreds of dollars on a new toy, but they like to play with the box :funny: I have decorated his cage with an assortment of bright and colourful toys of different shapes, sizes, materials... the adding machine tape didn't hold his interest very long. He's ignored most of the other stuff I put in there thusfar... but I got a box of stuff today with brown kraft paper stuffing. The paper is layered and bunched together. I put a couple of those through the bars of the cage and he's going to town on them! :emot-danc
Jenn
I've found the "right" toy! Just like a kid - you can spend hundreds of dollars on a new toy, but they like to play with the box :funny: I have decorated his cage with an assortment of bright and colourful toys of different shapes, sizes, materials... the adding machine tape didn't hold his interest very long. He's ignored most of the other stuff I put in there thusfar... but I got a box of stuff today with brown kraft paper stuffing. The paper is layered and bunched together. I put a couple of those through the bars of the cage and he's going to town on them! :emot-danc
Jenn
How true, It is great to hear he is having fun with his paper. That should do him a lot of good. Please take a pic.
This post reminded me to post a pic of Elvie having a ball in one of his boxes with one of his bottles.
http://www.thebirdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8956#post8956post8956
.
Too cute! Elvie looks like he's having fun :)
Actually it's not a box he's chewing - it's the kraft packing paper that came inside the box. It came in fat strands several layers thick so I threaded a couple of wads of it through the bars beside his perch and he's gnawing on that instead of himself.
He's got a ton of different items to choose from now, in his cage. The door is open too, so he can come out if he likes. My neighbour just got home and I showed him the dowels and handrail I bought for perches and he has agreed to cut and notch them for me (he and JT built me a nesting box last week for two of my 'tiels!). Soon Harley's cage will be as complete and hospitable as it can be!
My challenge now is to differentiate normal preening from when he's chewing... I'm a bit paranoid now, every time I see him messing with his feathers I worry that he's chewing... oy!
Jenn
Those packaging papers should be good. I can underdtand your apprehension to differentiate his normal preening from feather chewing. He should love some proper perches. The too I mentioned that had been basement kept for 2 years was forced to have a 2X4 wood perch. Poor little guy had been trying his darndest to round off the abrupt corners, he had almost chewed through it in one spot. (shaking head) What is wrong with some people?
Elvie has manzanita perches and swings in both regular, and travel cages. They are large enough and comfortable. I really bothers me to see someone cage their bird and deny them a proper furnishings and care. We are all happy you have him.
My tiels and conures have manzanita perches and I just ordered a 24" one for Harley - that should be here Thursday or Friday.
A friend of mine works with some lorikeets in an outdoor aviary and he's got some great grapevine stuff for them - he said he'd bring me some for the conures and tiels next time he was by - that stuff is great, bouncy and flexible, great for acrobatics!
Harley has greeted a few customers today :) Life is good.
Jenn
Ginny
07-05-2005, 08:36 PM
Jenn,
It sounds like everything is going just great for you. I really don't think you need to use the glove. I think he will just hold on to your hand to stead himself up. Maybe offer one hand for him to hold on to and then put the other one by his feet to step up on. If he was going to bite he would have done it by now. With looking the way he is acting with you I don't think he would bite you. Just don't be afraid of his beak. I know it looks huge but they know now much pressure they are putting on stuff. He might even let yo cup both hands under him and give him a big palce to step up on. Don't be scared if he reaches out to put his beak on you to make sure it is steady. I think you have a wonderful bird and he is going to do just fine with a lot of love and TLC. I think I would let him preen and just watch to see if you see any pieces of feathers that he has chewed off. If you don't see any then don't worry about him preening. He will want to fix his feathers after he gets wet and make them all look good. The less attention you draw to him preening the better. He won't start to think something is wrong. If you do start to see feathers then you will need to take a different approach. They are real smart birds and then know if you are helping them and loving them and will lean quick hot to please you.
I did not really use the glove today. Ron agreed that he's nervous because of his lack of balance. He fell a couple of times today - once during the exam and once later this afternoon :( He's ok, but he sometimes doesn't realize his limtations and he can't flap much if he slips - no loft in those wings.
I'm not as afraid of his beak now, that we seem to have bonded some. I have handled a macaw before - many many years ago - I know how powerful they are, but I also know that they can be very gentle. Harley's problem is, when he's scared, he hangs on tight... with his beak. He managed to climb up my arm to my shoulder today, and before I could wrangle him down again, he wasn't having a good time balancing and he grabbed on to my ear to hang on.... OUCH! He didn't mean to hurt me and I didn't yell or panic, but I calmly but quickly moved over to the stand so he could climb down... whew. He does like to bite down and 'test' how much pressure I'll tolerate - not too much - and I'll say, "ouch" (last keeper says he knows that word and its meaning). He's letting me play with his beak and he sticks his tongue out to 'taste'.
OH and there's no feathers in the bottom of his cage - I'm watching carefully for that. He's got a couple of "good" new feathers on one wing, and Ron told me to keep an eye on those to make sure he keeps them -- if he chews them off we know too that the habit is not going away.
He estimates it will take 2 months to start seeing a real difference, and he feels that if the chewing stops for the most part now, in 6 months he should look good again.
Jenn
Ginny
07-05-2005, 10:37 PM
Jenn,
Well it sounds like you got this whole thing all figured out. You are a great birdie mom and doing just fine.
Keep up the good work and keep us posted on how he is doing.
:woot:
SadennaAndFlock
07-05-2005, 11:51 PM
you could always let him see you mist the birds that enjoy it and maybe if he sees that it's not hurting them and they are having a good time he may follow suit..with these guys sometimes it "Monkey see, Monkey Do"...
Thanks! :) I do feel that I've learned a lot in a short time (with tons left to learn too!)
Sadenna, I had wondered that - since my conures love being misted, and my tiels - some do, some sorta do... if I 'showed' that to Harley.... but then I thought that might be silly so I didn't ask ;) I may try that tho... can't hurt. I mist the others anyway, may as well let him be nearby to watch ;)
I have a feeling Harley was punished in a variety of ways, for whatever reasons :( He doesn't like the wooden perch and he screams when he sees us with it and approaching him. We still use it for him to grab with his beak when moving him (for balance, or for him to step onto before I can get him close enough to me so he can lean on me), and last night when we were measuring the new dowels/rails for perches he protested that when we put them in the cage to mark for cutting. He doesn't like cups or mugs - I was talking to him with a coffee in my hand and when I got too close he screamed (this has happened several times) - perhaps somebody used to throw cups of water on/at him? Perhaps he was hit with a stick? He's going to have to eventually get used to these things - over time he's going to see that he's not punished here - at least not corporal punishment. Worst case scenario when he does a behavior that isn't 'nice', I say "NO" gently and firmly and I turn my back. I'd rather show him 'ignore' for bad behavior than any kind of attention at all. Since he craves attention, getting no attention is the reinforcment. I've done this with other birds (and other animals, for that matter!) and it seems to communiciate my point quite effectively. I say, "NO", turn my back for a moment. When I face him again, if the negative behavior continues, I do the same again, and if the behavior changes for the better, he gets a ton of attention and praise. All birds seem to hate not being the center of attention, so he isn't happy about it when I turn my back ;) He's clever enough to associate the negative behavior with being ignored... I'm sure it won't take long to figure it out. I spent some time a few months ago with Julio, a BE2 and this technique worked pretty quickly. Julio has a sweet disposition but lives with many other birds and does not get a lot of one on one time, so he needs a few manners is all. Worked for Julio - will probably work for Harley!
Looking forward to another day of progess and learning for both Harle and me!
Jenn
Schelle
07-06-2005, 08:42 AM
what a great story! I have learned so much from reading about your adventures with Harley. I shall have to try the 'back-turning' technique with Mitch (long-billed corella / BE2) when he gets noisy... also some of the bathing ideas...
another suggestion for the fruit and veggies - Mitch doesn't like fruit much (just chews through apple to get the seeds :P) but he LOVES sweet corn and broccoli stalks - I thread them on a wire and attach them to the cage wall so he can really tug and tear at them
I'm no authority on birds by any stretch of the imagination but I was told that apple seeds are dangerous to birds - they contain cyanide. When I give my birds apple, I wash, peel and cut up pieces - I don't give them the peel (because of the alar/wax/pesticides on it despite washing) and I cut it up and throw away the core and the seeds.
If I'm wrong - please correct me... but that's what I've been told, and what I've read.
Jenn
SadennaAndFlock
07-06-2005, 02:29 PM
yeah i have been confused on the whole apple seed thing as well, as I know of a few breeders in our area who have been in the business for years and I am talking like 30-40 years of experiance who offer whole apples seeds and all to their large birds with no problems thats what gets me confused they say not to offer but then I have learned so much from talking to someone who has been in the business for that long they have done and seen everything...but I stilll think to each his own, don't do it because someone says it's ok you have to use your own judgement..I don't feed apples very often here but when I do just out of habit I remove core and seeds but thats because I want to eat them to.
Here's an update since it's been a day or two since I posted.
Harley is doing very well. We haven't seen ANY chewing or self-mutilation at all. He's got lots of stuff to chomp on in his cage, and he spends much of the day on the stand beside me, and he's got an adding machine tape to play with. No feather bits in the bottom of the cage at all. He does preen occasionally but I haven't seen him chew. I actually think he's working on his appearance ;) Something tells me he's feeling better about himself :)
His feathers are already starting to look better - a few people have noticed and commented. His good feathers have a nice shine to them, and a nice smoothness - JT gave him a bit of a splash bath this morning. He had a couple of primary feathers starting to come in, and they are growing noticably and even one tail feather is starting to show. He has been flapping his wings quite a bit too, streching and exercising. Each day we're also hearing new vocalizations, and he's not screaming as much - he does scream occasionally but usually only if he's startled. At the end of the day when we lock down the store to go home (8:30-ish at night), he sounds somewhat mournful ... I remember Carlos used to do that. We say good night to him, and in the morning we greet him.
He's not a morning person. He's often cranky for the early part of the day, but becomes more friendly and affectionate from early afternoon on.
He likes potato. He likes grapes. I've given him some collard greens and alfalfa sprouts too, he will taste just about anything. He doesn't like chicken that much - my conures love it!
He is much better at "step up". He's still having balancing problems, but we only need the wood perch to help him out of the cage. The rest of the time we can get our bodies close enough to him to either lean on us or he uses his beak for balance - gently. The big plus is that he is *willing* to step up. He's still rather cage-protective, but once he's out he enjoys socializing. All day long he repeats, "Hi Harley!" quietly, over and over.
Here's a few pix!
First is my son, James, with Sunny. Then Harley chewing his paper tape, and finally, Harley flapping his wings on Eric's shoulder.
Ginny
07-08-2005, 04:10 PM
Jenn,
What great new. You can tell he is feeling right at home. You have a great bird and once his feathers all come back he is going to be beautiful! But he is beautiful now with his great sprit.
Awww, what good pics! Your son is a cutie! I am glad to hear Harley is doing so well. Just imagine his changes within a week. WONDERFUL!
Shirley
07-08-2005, 11:43 PM
Oh I LOVE the pics!!! Thank you Jenn!!
And thanks for all the updates! :heart:
Jenn, Looks like you are doing GREAT with Harley. That is so wonderful it makes me feel good inside to see him in such loving hands.
I love the photos!
Each day gets better and easier. Yesterday Harley seemed to enjoy getting really soaked down with a misting bottle. He protested at first, but we talked to him softly and misted him gently - not "direct fire" at first, and I think he realized that this wasn't a punishment... but a 'reward'... and eventually he relaxed and actually opened his wings up a bit to get wet underneath so we sprayed him a bit more aggressively. He got a good soaking and seemed to enjoy it. He is still not chewing his feathers - but loves his papers to shred :) I was afraid he might revert back, but the few primaries that were budding when we got him a week ago, have shown noticable growth and are remaining intact. He's much cleaner now - after the first bath or two he lost that sour smell he had - now he's just got 'bird smell' :) and it's not bad. He's liking the Harrison's pellets - my conures wouldn't eat it when I tried them on it last year, I'd had some samples and they threw it out of their cage :funny:
My customers are all meeting him - one by one, and he loves saying, "Hi Harley" to anyone who greets him - he's quite a character and he's already got quite a fan club. I do feel a need to explain why he's so lacking in the feather department - I don't want people to think he got that way on *our* watch, but everybody is understanding and glad that he's with us now, living large and being spoiled rotten!
Harley stepped up for Scott yesterday for the first time. Now when either Scott, Eric, JT or I are standing before him while he's on the stand, talking to him, he'll put up his foot to indicate he wants up when he does want up ;) Bold much?! A week ago we had to 'fight' to get him up on a stick, now he's climbing all over us! We still have to be really careful that he keep his balance. I'll be glad when he's got tail feathers enough to help him there.
What a difference a week makes - he's really a wonderful bird - and getting better every day!
Harley likes fried rice! (No msg!)... he shared some with me yesterday.
Not much else new to report - each day he's doing fine and his feathers are starting to grow a bit. Kind of like watching grass grow, or paint dry... but meanwhile he's entertaining us with new vocalizations every day - he's quite a character!
Shirley
07-13-2005, 11:35 AM
Wonderful updates, Jenn! Got any new pics? He sounds like a very happy fellow!:highfive:
I'm no authority on birds by any stretch of the imagination but I was told that apple seeds are dangerous to birds - they contain cyanide. When I give my birds apple, I wash, peel and cut up pieces - I don't give them the peel (because of the alar/wax/pesticides on it despite washing) and I cut it up and throw away the core and the seeds.
If I'm wrong - please correct me... but that's what I've been told, and what I've read.
Jenn
I peel his apples too, and wash all other fruit well. I have read the same about seeds and pits in fruits and veges. For safety measures I do not give food with any of them in it either. :highfive:
Ginny
07-13-2005, 04:06 PM
Harley likes fried rice! (No msg!)... he shared some with me yesterday.
Not much else new to report - each day he's doing fine and his feathers are starting to grow a bit. Kind of like watching grass grow, or paint dry... but meanwhile he's entertaining us with new vocalizations every day - he's quite a character!
Jenn,
It sounds like things are working out GREAT for you. Keep up the good work and keep litting us in on updates.
It's been a while... here's an update.
He hasn't stopped chewing totally :( This past week he chewed off his 2 primary feathers that were starting to get long (relative to the rest of the feathers on his wings). Otherwise things are fairly good - he's eating well, a good variety of 'people food' (rice and stuff), and today alone, 4 people mentioned that he's looking much better - his gold is *really* gold - perhaps the Harrison's is helping? We're misting him about every other day too, so he looks and smells much better than when he came to us. I'll try to take some pictures this week.
Today was a weird day. We have found that Harley isn't especially social before about 3:00 PM. He'll come out of his cage and play on his stand and chew paper and stuff but he's not keen on being touched or petted until after about 3:00. This afternoon (before 3!) Eric had him on his shoulder and Harley suddenly got hostile and bit Eric's ear - didn't draw blood but hurt him - twice. He asked me to help get him back to the stand, as Harley's balance is still sort of iffy - when I asked Harley to step up he wouldn't - repeatedly - and screamed and screamed in Eric's ear. I reached out for a step up once more and he bit me - hard. Drew blood and bruised my finger just below the nail and before the first knuckle. Owwie :( At that point JT arrived and picked Harley up by the body, from behind and quickly but gently placed him on the stand.
I cleaned up my wound and walked back to the stand, Harley just looked at me and said, "Hi Harley" in his usual friendly voice but he was snarly about any contact from anyone for the rest of the day. We chalked it up to bad mood I guess - we kept talking to him and providing him with things to play with and chew and eat for the rest of the day but he screamed a lot today - he's usually pretty quiet, if chatty - he does not typically scream much. Today he screamed if we left him alone, and he screamed if we paid him attention :( We're respectful of him if he doesn't seem to want to be petted but we keep on paying attention to him. We laughed on Saturday - Harley was on the front counter at the cash register, JT was petting him on the back, and he turned around, looked at JT and said, "Stop it!" :) JT obeyed LOL!
Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day. We will not be around the store much tomorrow - it's the one day a week that we're closed. We usually come and go throughout the day but tomorrow we're taking a road trip. I'll stop by to check on him tomorrow evening, and I'm sure Eric will check on him although he won't be around in the morning but he'll be around in the early afternoon. Guess we'll see.
Anybody have any suggestions for what to do? Hoping this was just a 'bad day' for Harley and not a pattern of behavior.
I'm a bit discouraged that he chewed more feathers - but as Ron, our vet, said, feather chewing is sort of like nail-biting. It's a nervous habit and can be difficult to break. Other than those 2 feathers coming off overnight one night, he seems to be doing alright. I think he may be chewing some of his tail feathers a bit too but it's hard to tell - time will tell I guess. I only saw the 2 royal blue wing feathers I was so proud of his growing, on the bottom of the cage.... :(
Jenn
Shirley
07-24-2005, 09:52 PM
Hang in there, Jenn... You're doing the best you can with what you know, and you'll keep on learning... and I have no experience with macaws. I'm sure Jim or Ginny or Jeff or whoever else has macaws will pop in and help you out. I'm so sorry he chose to chew his pretty new feathers off! Thank heavens he's not injuring his skin, which is how itchy Skyler is right now around his legs... so he has to wear his collar 24/7 for awhile. He'll get past it again; he did last time.
Do all you can to read his body language and avoid the biting. Avoiding bites is the best rather than trying to deal with them afterward. Always say NO BITE when he bites, and then withdraw yourself from him so he cannot bite you again, which you did thanks to JT being there to more him for you.
Distract him with a positive activity followed up with positive reinforcement when he's cranky, other than giving him alone time if you believe alone time is what he wants for awhile. They do need mental stimulation... very smart birds, and need mental challenges, things to do besides the same things every day. Talk to him a lot, tell him what you're doing throughout the day, tell him when you leave and when you're coming back, things like that.
I'll bet you're already doing that, however.
All the best to you and Harley and everyone else there, too... thanks for writing,
Shirley :)
Hi Jenn
I reread this thread and I do have some ideas and experince with this. I'm going to give it a little more thought and sleep on it.
I'll try and post something tomorrow.
You're doing a fine job.
Hi Jenn, Gosh, I am sorry to hear about Harley. I'd say, he has been told stop it enough to know the meaning very well.
I do not have macaws, but would like to offer some things for thought, they are not for macaws, they are for parrots in general.
Since mornings and midday are not social times for Harley, It makes me question, what has gone wrong in his past until late afternoons. There are so many things it could it be attributed to. He could of lived with a day worker and never had attention until late in the day, or had negative attention through the daytime hours and waited for someone he cared about to come home from work in the evenings. Lack of actual sunlight to stimulate his happiness, many birds outlook thrive on actual sunlight. He could have aches and pain that do not relieve him until later in the day when he gets enough exercise to stimulate his body. He could be unhappy waiting for someone from his past, maybe not his prior owner but someone before then, especially if he has been kept in poor conditions like he was at his past owner. He could of dwelled over someone he loved and lost before then. He could just be a daytime groutch, which is abnormal for birds on an on going basis.
Shirley covered good ideas I will not mention again. Hopefully,he just had an off day.
Iam sure Jim, Sadenna, Giny, Jeff and who ever else is good with macaw behavior will lend more ideas. "Good Luck" Thanks, for the update.
Thanks for the words of encouragement :) I was pretty discouraged yesterday.
My finger is still sore but not as bad as I initially expected.
His last keeper told me he knew what "ouch" means, so when he nips and when he bit me, we said/say "Ouch" - liken it to "no bite" but that's the word he knows already. I guess I expected to see him somewhat remorseful for biting, but he seemed to behave defiantly after - as if he had one up on us and was proud of it. We did continue to talk to him and offer him diversions - we just kept our fingers clear. I did make sure to stand a bit taller when close to him - I've heard from many sources that if a bird is above your head he thinks he's superior... so I wanted my body language to subtly tell him that I'm above him. JT is 6'2" so he's always taller! :)
Thanks for the feedback, Jean - gives me new things to consider about his "emotional baggage" and I look forward to reading Jim's thoughts later on.
Harley's a good bird... and we're committed to him... we just had a bad day yesterday is all.
We're also talking about rigging some sort of perch/structure to bring him home at night, or at least on Sunday nights when we are closed Mondays. Like I said we come and go usually throughout the day on Monday - we aren't necessarily at home more than at the shop - but in an effort to minimize his 'alone time'.... anybody got some good ideas for PVC play structures? I saw some that used PVC and dowels.... might be time to go to Home Depot again..... ;)
Jenn :)
Shirley
07-25-2005, 09:29 AM
Hi Jenn,
About being remorseful...
Holly, African Grey... She is very sorry when she bites me. It shows. (she hardly ever bites, btw)
Shelby, Bare-eyed Cockatoo, behaves like a playful 2-yr-old 24/7, very intelligent, but impish, self-centered, everything is about her in her life, and she has never ever shown that she's sorry or remorseful about anything. Tell her No Bite and she quits, but acts more like a cat, like who me? Bite? I didn't bite, or she makes cutesy noises as though she just didn't mean it at all, but there's no apology there or sorrow. And, she'll do it again the next time she gets carried away or impatient or aggressive in play, or demanding of what she wants... she will never grow up. She's 4.
Bringing Harley home at night: That's one EXCELLENT idea. He would love it, I do believe. He will be more secure sleeping with his flock, even though he will be in a different room. His call will be answered if he should ever have a night terror, or need you. Big birds have big needs, imo.
As for Ouch vs No Bite: the only comment here is, for me, Ouch has emotion of pain, and No Bite is said with a command of Don't you EVER do this again! Now, I don't know how you are saying this... but it's something to consider.
I never say a word when I'm bit regarding the pain. I've had to breathe and hold my finger against the bridge of my nose once with Shelby, but I didn't say anything. No, she wasn't on my shoulder... she literally flew across the kitchen from Steve to me... figure that one out. Then she was all cute and cooing. And no, it did not get her what she wanted. She's just the kid in the class that would make you think she's "spoiled, an only child, and too smart for her britches" sometimes, but also very sweet and loving most of the time.
She and Skyler (RB2) and Holly (CAG) are all completely different in personality and in biting behavior. Holly rarely ever bites, but her bite would be the most dangerous, thus I won't allow even a tiny nip. Kisses yes, a nip, no.
Hi Jenn
First I want to say thank you. You have given a good description of the things that are going on. I commend you, your eye for detail is good and helps us understand.
I'm a straight to point kind of guy so I hope this is written clearly. If you have any questions please ask.
I had a similar situation last year with a friends bird we housed for 3 weeks while she was on vacation. The bird (Scarlet Macaw) was much like Harley was the day you described. This was too unpredictable for my liking. I worked with her and in 1 week the bird showed signs of progress and was not really biting if I paid attention to her body language.
Since all birds are such individuals I'll say what I think and maybe you can come up with a plan for you and Harley.
I'm thinking he is more willing to interact after 3:00 PM because he is a little hungry and doesn't want to drive you away. By now he probably see's you or humans he interacts with as the food source.
To keep this short and readable I'll explain what I know, did, and do.
I try not to bring my emotions and or thoughts about boss, dominance, love, hate, etc. into the situation when dealing with something like this. I try, time permitting, to work with a bird before feeding. I'm in no way talking about using food to control! I take advantage of the situation by knowing (a little) about what makes them tick.
I remember our son was much nicer and more willing to set the table, etc. right before dinner than he was once he was full. Believe me we did not strive that boy, he's a big one.
Could you set yourself up as part of the birds life, environment, so he sees you as part of his survival? Survival is probably the most driving force a bird has. Also I believe the birds feel better about their self if they work for food. It's natural, it's what they have done for millions of years. It seems to me that once they see humans as a simple part of their live/survival they become more relaxed and willing to get along.
Anyway I hope that made a little since. Again if something I wrote is unclear ask. If you are interest or you think this may be something to try ask.
Again, good job on the details.
P. S. Wish I had a fix all answer, but I don't think that is possible when we are dealing with birds.
Real quick, I think I need to clarify "survival"
It is not all about food, all though it may be the strongest survival instinct.
Example:
The boys are in their room. We have company or are making noise. They let out the Macaw squawk/call. I assume they are wondering and wanting to know what is happening. There is a fine line here for me to decide. Is it attention or wanting to know what is going on in their environment. I go get them, bring down, they see what's up for a few and they go back to their room.
In my mind I have provided a part of there natural survival instincts. This is not proven, at best it's a theory. It is something I do and is working.
Shirley
07-25-2005, 12:32 PM
Could you set yourself up as part of the birds life, environment, so he sees you as part of his survival? Survival is probably the most driving force a bird has. Also I believe the birds feel better about their self if they work for food. It's natural, it's what they have done for millions of years. It seems to me that once they see humans as a simple part of their live/survival they become more relaxed and willing to get along.
That's the premise of clicker training: any bird that gets hungry will be successful with clicker training. And we don't ever "make the bird hungry". They just like to eat. Thus, all birds (yes, all birds) are clicker-trainable. They are also all +R trainable (positive reinforcement). Clicker Training (c/t) is positive reinforcement, but I think when Jim talks about +R he's talking about a similar training / behavior modification method but w/o the clicker and maybe some other differences. Many ways to communicate +R to a bird.
Patience, acceptance, and understanding how the other lives and feels are the foundation for all your training/teaching/behavior modification science, whether it be with kids in the classroom, horses in the arena, or birds in your home... or teenagers in your home for that matter...
:wub:
or teenagers in your home for that matter...I 'm not sure teenagers are trainable by in means... :rofl: Just kidding with ya a little ;)
Shirley
07-25-2005, 12:54 PM
Depends on the +R they had as youngsters.... :rotflmao:
I must say... it worked quite nicely with mine! :dance:
Jim, you touched on more key points, reading body language, and their natural instincts of survival, which is often a secondary thought for us bird parents since we are always making sure they have a well rounded diet. They are both very important factors in a parrots behavior.
Living in our parrots world we have to learn to use psychology of "parroting" which
varies from our human thoughts and needs in our world as we know it.
Depends on the +R they had as youngsters.... :rotflmao:
I must say... it worked quite nicely with mine! :dance:
:agree: our's too. It began in their early childhood as their way of life! :dance:
This is such an excellent discussion!! I'm very glad to have this resource and all the combined experience here to help us!
I've been home for a while, we stopped at the store a while ago on the way home and had a short visit with Harley. I don't see any self-mutilation today and he seemed happy to see us, said Hello and his body language "smiled" to see us.
Let's take a look at what was discussed and what I can respond to, so you can coach me some more :)
"Ouch"... said matter-of-factly. I think I even held up my finger as if to show him and said firmly: "Ouch" as if to point out that the bite caused an injury. I didn't panic or cry out when it happened - I'm not one to 'freak out' in an emergency - I usually handle a crisis rather calmly and have a meltdown privately after whatever crisis is over LOL! We have said, "NO" too, and in play if he's mouthing a bit hard I have said either, "Be nice" or "Don't bite". If he gets a bit too firm in his oral exploration, I usually pull back and don't let him have another shot at it, I'll keep talking to him or whatever, but I'll keep out of the way for the moment, and initiate physical contact a bit later - usually a few minutes but if I'm called away to a customer or whatnot sometimes it's a while. Honestly I think sometimes Harley doesn't know his own strength. Most times he can be incredibly gentle - he was "preening" Scott's ear the other day and we were all sort of laughing at how dexterous birds can be with their beaks - he was so gentle. At times when he's playing though he can become a bit strong and honestly I don't think he means to hurt most times. Yesterday's bite was intentional on his part, and honestly it' the first time I can say with certainty that he intended to harm me. Given that his demeanor today seems more 'normal' I think perhaps he just had a "bad day" yesterday.
Eating -- I usually have food available to him at all times. He's got his food and water in his cage, which are changed out nightly when he's put to bed, and when he's on the stand during the day he gets fresh water and pellets right away, and during the day he gets other foods, veggies, or rice - he mooches a bite of Eric' apple and his PBJ during the day, or whatnot - he's getting a variety of stuff and he has food available at all times.
He also has toys/diversions available at all times too. He's really loving cardboard, adding machine tape and that bushy craft paper. He's not keen on playing on flat surfaces, but he's done a bit of time on the store counter but only when we watch him carefully. I've got a store display "bunker" that's about 3' tall and is about a square yard in surface, with a lip around it - my conures used to play on it when I'd put their gym on it. I put Harley there one day with some toys so he could rip and tear and throw and play but he only wanted to perch on the edge. We did this a few times, offering different things to play with, but he still just preferred to perch on the edge.
Bringing him home is an option, but one with logistical concerns. I have 2 cats and a dog. My dog has 'met' Harley and wasn't bothered by him but that was at the store - she knows that's 'home' but it's not *her* home. I'm not sure how she'd be, she was very jealous of the conures when I first got them, and while she is gentle, she's an 80+ pound, 10 year old dog, and in her puppy days she killed a couple of my turkey pullets - although she left my Guinea fowl and various and sundry egg-laying hens alone... go figure... but that was many years ago . My 17 year old cat doesn't mind birds, when I did wild bird rehab work, I shot video of my cat sprawled on the deck with fledgling robins pecking his tail! :funny: I do have a 4 year old cat who concerns me a bit but I'm sure Harley could handle him - but I'm afraid of that too!
I don't have a spare room in my house - the only room I could use is my laundry room and my cats' box is in there so I couldn't shut him in - and not sure I'd want to. I don't have room for a cage large enough for him.... his own cage is massive - I'm hard pressed for space in the shop for it as it is. I don't have the money to buy another cage at the moment, even wholesale on those is steep... so I'm open to suggestions here on how best to handle this situation?
I need to read the section on clicker training - I can't contribute to that line of thinking til I read and understand it so that's my next bit of homework ;)
I really need to learn more "parrot psyche 101" ... as silly as it sounds, I'm good at catching the fish I sell in my shop, because, as I joke with people, I "become one with the fish"... silly yes, but to some extent I've learned to predict how the fish will react, and usually can catch them in a collection cup without a net (Less chance of injury, less stress - it's the 'fish's idea' to go into the cup...) Following that, I need to "become one with the bird" and understand his thought processes in order to communicate effectively with him. I do believe he is happy to be where he is, and he probably wants to 'be a good bird', but unless I/we learn to tell him what it is that we want, and we learn to understand when he's trying to communicate something, we won't get very far ;)
I'll go read the clicker training info, while you all read this and respond :)
Thanks again - I really appreciate all the help and support - and I'm sure Harley does too! :D
Jenn
OH and BTW... I officially became the mother of a teenager yesterday - my elder child turned 13 :eek: She's fairly "trainable" but her younger brother.... oy vey! :Funny:
Jenn
Shirley
07-25-2005, 06:12 PM
OK... don't know about your dog / cat situation, but I wouldn't house him with a litter box in the room for sanitary reasons. How about sleeping him in your bedroom? Many of us do...
Now, fwiw, my avian vet has three dogs and five cats and two large cockatoos that are uncaged (flighted) all the time she is home, BUT she never leaves them loose unsupervised, and her large rescue dogs could not care less about her birds: Greyhound, Rottweiler, and Chihuahua. (stop laughing at the chihuahua!) The dogs have their own bedroom. The birds have their own bedroom where their large cages are, and the cats have their own room for their litter boxes, but all use the whole house at times. She has no kids, and *supervision* is the rule here... and the birds go to work with her. The Rottie is not safe with other people very much, but doesn't give the large 'toos a 2nd look, but she still does not leave them together unsupervised ever.
Our Schnauzer never so much as blinks at any of our birds, regardless now small they are or where they are... but we never leave them out unsupervised with her. She didn't used to be this way; she used to want to destroy the little ones. Our cat fears all our birds.
Not sure about my point here, but it can work to bring him home if you want to... as for a sleeping cage... not sure the requirements for a macaw... I would be personally worried about my birds spending the night unsupervised and would want them home with me. That's my opinion. In your case, might he be killed by the dog?... maybe... I don't know your situation or your dog... I can't weigh the pros and cons...
Clicker Training is easy and quick. The books might make it seem complicated and like it takes a long time. Skyler learned how to target for a treat in one minute in Dr. Cook's office. That is what got me started... Reading had me all bogged down, I was doing it wrong, then I saw her do it with Skyler, and we were off and running. Or off and clicking, I should say.
Talking about being at one with the fish -- EXCELLENT! You'll find yourself being at one with Harley and being very successful with him!
Today two children visited Skyler and the others. They met the birds one time before. The 4th grade boy had Skyler turning around and targeting the stick for peanut chips for 20 minutes solid. He couldn't get him to fly his wings, but he got him to turn around several times. Skyler was happy and his mind was off his skin, and the child was delighted at the success he was experiencing with Skyler.
And here I thought my house was big enough :funny: It's only about 1500 square feet - 3 bdrm ranch.
Cats and dog have free run of the house, the cats have their box in the laundry room. They are unsupervised together all day.
My tiels and conures have never been to my house - I spend 80+ hours a week at the store so they see me more than the dog and the cats do. Cats could care less :funny: and my children spend time with the dog - she is a bit of a couch potato these days, I doubt she'd do any of the birds any harm, but it has been 4 years since I brought another animal into her turf, the last was Marvin the cat, who was all of 1 lb. 6 oz when he came home. First thing he did was jump up on Sandy's face and grip with both paws clawed deep on either side :eek: Sandy turned to look at me from between the sprawled legs clamped to her face as if to say, "What the He** is this?!":shrug:
As I stare at the sleeping cat at my feet... hmmmm.... well *IF* I can figure how to bring Harley home, that's one thing, but I can't bring 'em all home - the conures have been fine for well over a year this way, and the tiels I began to accumulate at Christmas... they don't seem to mind being alone overnight, and I'm not having any behavior or other issues with them. So we're back to the Harley bit :)
I've been looking at DIY stuff online - my neighbour could probably fix me a bucket of cement with a pvc pipe fitting in it to accomodate a pipe to build a perch or gym from... from there I can build some sort of structure (I see enlisting JT's help on this one...) I'm in the process of rearranging my bedroom as I type this (waiting for my 20 year old waterbed to drain - I bought a regular bed today!) so I guess I'll see what kind of room I have left. There's definitely not room for a cage but if I can figure out some sort of nighttime perch or something, that could work... we'll see.
Meanwhile, looking about the clicker training stuff... Shirley do you suggest I get the book? Your last post sort of makes me think the book may be intimidating... but I need to really learn about how the bird thinks, in order to better work with him. I posted to the other thread, my wholesaler sells clickers by the 30-pack - they are out of stock right now but I may buy a box when they are back in stock - I'll keep a few (because I'll probably lose one or two... duh! :shrug2: But if anyone's interested I can probably share :)
Jenn
Shirley
07-25-2005, 07:15 PM
I strongly recommend Melinda's book, b/c without the guidance and the underlying principles, where would one begin? But seeing it in action is the crux of it all, and unfortunately, there are no videos... hmmmm... that's what I do for a living... I need to make a clicker training video.... yep, need to do that... with someone who's done a ton of clicker training, like Melinda...
Anyhow... I'm not the expert on clicker training, I just have been successful teaching a few behaviors and have learned that the birds love it, it takes their mind off negative behaviors, it lets them know that interaction and learning sure is fun, and they love it. It's also a darned good way to teach them useful behaviors that you might need in case of emergencies, like administering medications, submitting to examinations, etc. and recall if they get loose, and trusting you if they are afraid.
Shirley
07-25-2005, 07:19 PM
Here's the link to the entire kit -- finally got the link!
http://clickertraining.com/store/
EDIT: Well, I don't see the KIT there... and the clicker is $14.95 for a digital clicker... :eek: a regular $2.50 clicker works perfectly fine... but the book is there, both new and used, used being $5.00 discounted. You can also get it at Amazon.com new and used.
EDIT AGAIN: OK... go to that link, look on the left, click on "clicker starter kits" and you'll see a new page of clicker starter kits. One of them is for birds and is by Melinda Johnson, includes the clicker and a CD of photos, not video, and is $21.95. (All you need is a used book and a cheap clicker from where ever, really, if you are on a budget.) The book retails for $14.95. It's a very good book and not a difficult read.
I would post the URL, but it's the same as the above URL... unfortunately they don't have a direct link to the starter kits.
~ Shirley
Ginny
07-25-2005, 11:24 PM
wow a lot of good info here and I am not sure that I can say much more then everyone else has.
First I have to say that if you can become one with a fish you will soon be able to become one with Harley. You just have to get to know each other more and more. It will take some time. I don't think there are many people that have had birds that have not been bitten a few times. That is just going to happen. You will need to learn to read body language and that will take time also.
I think what Jeff said is great. I also want to add that Harley needs to see you as a flock member not just a care taker. I think it will do a LOT of good to bring her home. It is not quantity (all day at the shop being there with her) but quality (let her sit with you while you read, read to her) let her sit with you while you watch TV and hold her on your lab and pet her. Lay on the couch and let her lay on your chest and connect with you. These little quality times will do so much more then just being there in the same room with her. They need to interact with you SO SO much. We will sit on a evening and play catch the ball with Taco. She will sit on Mark's lap and I throw the ball on the couch next to her and she tosses it down on the floor to me and it throw it back. She loves this game. Set up a routine....like every night at a certain time let her watched a TV program with you. I think it is SO important to let them do things with you. I also don't think that Some birds when they bite feel sorry for it. When they bite it is for some reason that they have in their heads. I don't think they sit there and think ok I am going to bite mom to make her mad or after they bite they think Oh I am sorry I did that to mom. They bite and go on with life. In the wild they might nip at another bird for some reason that that other bird will say ..... oh she didn't like what I just did and not do that again. But with us being human I don't think we can always know why they did it. Now sometimes you can tell because you push something that you know that the bird doesn't like but then there will be other times they just bite and you just don't know why. They will also sometimes bite you if they bond to you and someone else comes to close to you (in the birds mind). They will bite you to tell you to move away from that person.
You have not had Harley that long and the honeymoon is soon going to be over and you are going to see things you have not seen yet. As they get more comfortable with you they are going to let their true colors show, and also test you.
When we first got Taco she seemed to LOVE my youngest son and went to everyone in the room. Then after about 5 or 6 months she started to go after him every time he walks by the cage. She has bonded more with me and my husband because we are the ones that sit with her every night and watch TV and that kind of stuff. My son just doesn't have the time right now in his life. Taco has also gotten to where she doesn't let too many people go up to her and just pick her up. (that is why we were so surprised that Troy was able to just pick her up and after a few days she would sit with Steve). So I guess what I am trying to say is I think more one on one time at home where you don't get interrupted with customers and stuff would make a big difference.
I think she would be happier in the home and feel like one of the family. Also with her sleeping at the shop you don't know how well she is sleeping. Do you turn off all the lights? Maybe the noise of the pumps or something could be keeping her from a good sleep. Or maybe cars going by and the lights shining in the window wake her up during the night. You just never know. If they don't get a good night sleep it can make them grumpy. But you do have to think about your dogs and cat. You know them best. Is there any way you can put the dog and cat in another room while the bird is out? Or make sure you are right there with the bird at all times when the bird is out of the cage.
Can I ask did you ever go to the vet and get a CBC done to make sure everything is ok with her? I think that is important also. There just could be something medical going on that you would never know without a blood test.
wow this is getting long. Well this is my :cents: worth. I hope something in it will help.
By the way you are doing a GREAT job and you will find some of these things will work for you and some won't. It is just like kids you have to find out what works the best for you and your bird. :wub: What works for one bird and owner might not work for another. Don't get too upset over a bite. It is going to all be part of learning about each other.
Ginny, you made a lot of good points with some great ideas. I had not even thought of about the possible pump noise in the store at night. It may well be, her surroundings at night may not be quiet enough for her to get a good nights sleep. It is also possible she gets frightend being there alone with the fish tanks and what ever noise their equipment makes.
There has been a world of good ideas on this thread so far and they just keep coming.
Oh yes, he has been there long enough to start testing his place in his new flock.
Shirley
07-26-2005, 12:06 AM
Excellent points, Ginny! I must say, it's very relaxing to watch them interact with their birds at night while watching TV, and that's what we do at night at home... pretty much "nothing" in the eyes of others, but we're holding, petting, preening, or playing with a bird or three... Sometimes we'll just sit and preen their heads and necks for them for hours at night while watching tv. Boy do they love that! Or I'll talk or be silly, or roll them on their backs, etc. Just like playing with a baby in a way. And lots of body contact. They love it and they crave it. Right on, Ginny!
Ginny
07-26-2005, 12:10 AM
Ginny, you made alot of good points with some great ideas. I had not even thought of about the possible pump noise in the store at night. It may well be, her surroundings at night may not be quiet enough for her to get a good nights sleep. It is also possible she gets frightend being there alone with the fish tanks and what ever noise their equipment makes.
There has been a world of good ideas on this thread so far and they just keep coming.
Oh yes, he has been there long enough to start testing his place in his new flock.
You are right it doesn't take long and they will start to test their ground. :roflmao2: Just like a kid.
Bacardi sleeps in the livingroom and we have a dark cover over her and see sleeps pretty good but Taco is a real light sleeper and any noise or light and she wakes up. Even if the hall light come on she pops her head us. Some birds are real light sleepers and some are not. But if she is not there it is hard to tell. I know my birds are not the same if we are up later some nights or if they get woken up several times durring the night. My one son works at the hospital and some nights he doesn't get home until 1 or 2 am but it is hard not to wake the birds up. So you never know what noise might be waking up Harley. But then again Harley might be a sound sleeper. I guess it goes back to you have to get to know your own bird and what works best for them.
Hmmm more interesting stuff to ponder.
Yep there's a lot of "white noise" in the store. I don't pay attention to it - so I rather forget about it. I have some tinnitus in my ears so I rather can't stand dead silence because it only amplifies the ringing I hear all the time. A bit of white noise actually helps me.... but I digress...
Each bird gets some good quality 'me time' during the day. I've got a couch at the store and we'll sit and play and watch the fish in the big tank.. Eric will take a bird and sit at the desk he occupies at the back and do his work with one bird accompanying him. All of us at some time of day, is "wearing" a bird LOL!
I'll see what I can do about fixing up a spot for Harley at the house and we'll go from there. As far as his past goes - he was alone in a basement all the time - flock calling whenever he heard voices on the main floor of the house. At least *now* he's able to see and 'participate' in the activities of the day.
Jenn
Ginny
07-26-2005, 01:55 AM
Hmmm more interesting stuff to ponder.
Yep there's a lot of "white noise" in the store. I don't pay attention to it - so I rather forget about it. I have some tinnitus in my ears so I rather can't stand dead silence because it only amplifies the ringing I hear all the time. A bit of white noise actually helps me.... but I digress...
Each bird gets some good quality 'me time' during the day. I've got a couch at the store and we'll sit and play and watch the fish in the big tank.. Eric will take a bird and sit at the desk he occupies at the back and do his work with one bird accompanying him. All of us at some time of day, is "wearing" a bird LOL!
I'll see what I can do about fixing up a spot for Harley at the house and we'll go from there. As far as his past goes - he was alone in a basement all the time - flock calling whenever he heard voices on the main floor of the house. At least *now* he's able to see and 'participate' in the activities of the day.
Jenn
Oh that is great that you have a nice couch and are able to take the time out and spend the quality time. I am sure that helps a lot. I know what you mean about wearing a bird...that is funny :rofl: I guess we all do that...wear a bird and the poop :eek:
Well I was just throwing stuff out there to think about. You never know someone might just come up with something that will work or something no one else thought of. Everyone had a lot of good suggestions. I am sure you will find what works best for the both of you. As for the bites (they are still wild animals) and I guess you just never know but try not to take it personal. I don't think the bird means it personal....it just might be PMS :rofl: You are off to a great start and you have come such a long way. You might not realize it but you have. Just keep up the good work and it will all mesh. Don't get discouraged. :wub:
LOL about wearing the poop. I'm sure Shirley will mention potty training - her birds are very tidy :) My cockatiels will pretty much poop anywhere, anytime - but my conures and Harley seem to prefer NOT to poop on us. I can't say they are potty trained per se, but if we make the effort to place them in an appropriate place to poop, every 15 minutes or so, they'll poop there and not on us.
I'm not discouraged really - a bit disappointed perhaps. I found that my feelings were really hurt when Harley bit me - and I've been nipped by the conures before, and I've been bitten with feeling by a macaw too... dunno just caught me off-guard I suppose.
Yes I realize that with a beak like that, they are apt to "use it" occasionally - I don't expect never to be nipped or bitten - my friend Kim has a big GW and it took a chunk out of her arm one day for 'no apparent reason'... she's very experienced with birds and it caught her by surprise... "stuff happens". Guess all we can do is figure out why and try to avoid that kind of situation again.
I'm outta here this morning - got to take JT to the dentist then we'll go in to the shop.
:)
Ginny
07-26-2005, 11:24 AM
LOL about wearing the poop. I'm sure Shirley will mention potty training - her birds are very tidy :) My cockatiels will pretty much poop anywhere, anytime - but my conures and Harley seem to prefer NOT to poop on us. I can't say they are potty trained per se, but if we make the effort to place them in an appropriate place to poop, every 15 minutes or so, they'll poop there and not on us.
I'm not discouraged really - a bit disappointed perhaps. I found that my feelings were really hurt when Harley bit me - and I've been nipped by the conures before, and I've been bitten with feeling by a macaw too... dunno just caught me off-guard I suppose.
Yes I realize that with a beak like that, they are apt to "use it" occasionally - I don't expect never to be nipped or bitten - my friend Kim has a big GW and it took a chunk out of her arm one day for 'no apparent reason'... she's very experienced with birds and it caught her by surprise... "stuff happens". Guess all we can do is figure out why and try to avoid that kind of situation again.
I'm outta here this morning - got to take JT to the dentist then we'll go in to the shop.
:)
Jenn,
Have a great day. It does seem like the bigger birds seem to be better about pooping on you. It is funny how some just are so good about it and other just don't seem to care. Mine are pretty much potty trained but now and then :roflmao2: and it is really bad when you out some where and later that night when you take your shirt off you see in on the back of your shirt and you wonder :scratchch hmmm now how long has that been there and where did I go today with that there. :rofl:
You are so right even the BEST bird handlers are going to get bit from time to time. It is like when you fall off a horse.....you get right back on and ride again. You can't show fear or anger.
Have a great day and hope JT gets a good report at the Dent.
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