I don't understand

[morgavin]

I don't understand. Yesterday I spent most of the day with Pepper. Shower about 11 AM. Played and talked for hours and hours. Everything just as wonderful as could be. Then about 6 ish I put her on Top of her cage for dinner. Well she shreeked and carried on asking for me to pick her up again....I put out my finger and up....so far no problem. Then, no warning, she starts "chewing" my thumb like it was her perch. My thumb looks like I got it stuck in a meat grinder. I said in a loud, not hollering, voice "bad bird, no bite" to no avail. She just kept tearing my thumb apart. I couldn't hardly get her off of it, even rolling her almost upside down. I finally got her off and closed the cage and covered it telling her bad bird. I left her in the covered cage telling her every time she would start to make souds that she was a bad bird and she hurt dad. 10 minutes later I uncovered her and talked with her about how bad it hurt. A few minutes later she again asked to get up and it was like nothing happened. I picked her up and petted her. No fear of me, readily accepting my affection.
How do I handle things like this... I just don't understand

[Shirley]

You handled it just fine, Neil. This stuff happens... and 10 min later she may well not know what you are talking about... or she might. So coming back to lecture more later is likely counter productive, or just a waste of time and confusing to her.

I give Holly a VERY STERN TALKING TO immediately, put her in her cage asap, and ignore her, no covering, nothing, just ignore her. If it happens at bedtime, she goes to bed right then with no ritual whatsoever and Skyler gets the same routine as normal (good night Skyler, see you in the morning, etc, and their sleep cages are side-by-side and covered separately)

She's usually ignored for a few hrs b/c she doesn't get that much attention during the day anyway. If it's my son she bites, then we wait til another day entirely. If it's me... a small nip is all she ever bites now, and then the reason is the phone, or I'm talking to Troy, then she is put up right then and it's for quite a long time -- maybe 2-3 hrs or more. So... bites / nips are rare.

When Play-Doh bit yesterday for no Earthly reason whatsoever that we could see, I had to make quite an earthquake to shake him loose and I did so immediately so he didn't break the skin. He was stepping up, and he "doesn't bite anymore" (yeah, right!) and he nearly broke the skin in two places. Had I not shook him off hard, he would have. I just sternly said NO BITE and then had him step up again and he did so nicely and we went about what we were doing. I didn't put him up b/c it seemed he didn't even know what he did it for... I was taking him from the ground to the swing... so I just held him and after yelling at him to not bite, I did whatever I was going to do, and then put him back on the ground with Michelle. He didn't bite again at all. Later he did the same thing again for no reason to Troy, who did NOT shake him off but tried to pull away from him, and his finger was bleeding in two places. Again, he was told a very stern NO BITE and this time, put in his cage. He's still learning, and it could be something as simple as Troy's step-up was not "secure" enough and it scared him, and he grabbed really hard or bit from fear he'd lose balance or who knows. He's not an aggressive bird, and he isn't bonded to one person.

He isn't biting anyone today.

Holly only gives pinches. I can't take the risk of allowing a pinch... a bite could break my nose, rip my face apart, or send me for stitches.

You've got to shake the bird off hard enough to get the bite to release and be sure to say the same thing in the same stern voice and get the bird in time out for a good long while, totally ignoring her. Holly gets a short lecture after I sternly tell her no bite if it's slightly harder than a pinch. She HATES the lecture and really tries to "apologize" with her body language.

Of course... DON'T beak flip the bird... you'll be sorry if you do. It won't on a bird with the intelligence of an Amazon or a grey.

[morgavin]

Thanks for responding.... I was told in the past to "beak bite them back", but I remember how I felt as a child, and hurt doesn't help you learn and they don't forget that you hurt THEM. I think your scold and then ignore, would be a good way to handle things like this. I wish I could have gotten her off sooner, but I didn't want to do something to hurt her. Shaking didn't work so I tried to roll her upside down and that finally did it. She doesn't like to be covered so I thought this would be the worst negative response to her. Something that she would understand that she did wrong. I'll ignore her next time (heaven forbid, but it will probably) for a while. Its just so puzzling when we have come so far, to have this happen.

[Shirley]

There's nothing wrong with covering her cage. I just don't go to the trouble.

I'll do whatever it takes to get the beak to release short of injure the bird -- shaking by flinging across the room, for instance could injure or kill the bird.

Remember - 2 yr old child with a smart brain... and wild animal, not a dog.
I "retrain" Holly on a daily basis... just like retraining horses on a daily basis... the little subtle things you notice and correct for that only you will notice... "nip it in the bud" once the bird knows the rules and boundaries... you can't give in even once.

[morgavin]

Patience, patience, patience. Thanks again... The analogy of a 2 yr old is exactly how I treat her.... If I wouldn't do it to a young child, I'm not doing it to her. And she never gets off free when wrong. I just don't get the preen me one minute, bite hell out of next. I never went through this with the birds I've had in the past. I'm trying sooo hard for her and get dissapointed when we have set backs... but forward...always forward. I feel confident in your advice and once again:thanx:

PS I 'm not afraid to ask questions or post....It is here for all to read and learn, was looking for chat type situation b/c I'm not going to be able to stay.....

[Shirley]

Birds, like little kids, don't think reasonably. I've had students tell me later, "How could you still like me when I treated you like that???" And I'd just laugh and say, "You were a kid; that's how kids act. I knew you didn't mean it."

Birds, of course, don't grow up... but some do have higher levels of "maturity" than others, and I do believe some of that is dependent upon how they are raised, and some is not.

[Jean]

Shirley said it well, and I agree 100 %. :agree: Patience never ends. We feel confused when they do things we feel they know better then to do. That is how they must view us in exchange.

They have moments they want to please us and also have mixed emotions or anger about what they want or feel at the moment. That is often when bites come.

They are loving breathing beings that have emotions like humans, they have their off days like we do. They have their happy and content days too. They are a child like companion to us as well as having emotions of being our personal bonded mate. This adds more confusuion to their emotions then that of a 5 year old child. They look to us for their freedom, food, toys, love, safety, companion and emotions. It is very easy for humans to think of their needs as we "suppose" them to be.

Life is much more simple to them in the wild. They know their place in the flock and they have their mate. They are busy finding food and cover They also have the ability to fly away if they choose not to be bothered or do something. Always try to remember they were created and programmed to be free and soar the skies at any given moment.

Another thing to keep in mind, they live in our confusing world, they are continually having to adjust to our lifestyle and emotions that is not always easy. Give this a thought! If you are a dominent left handed person and all of a sudden you are forced to do every thing with your right hand.
Would that cause confusion in your mind?

[Shirley]

WOW!! :bestpost: That's a keeper! Thanks, Jean!

[Jean]

You are welcome!!! Just sharing my feelings!

[Shirley]

You made so many valid "bird perspective" points... and the part about the 5 yr old plus being our mate... how true, and what a train wreck of emotions that presents!

[Jean]

It certainly does!!! :heart: :wub: :heart: Who ever said love can be easy never really knew what love is. Just imagine us being take into a Giants world expected to return love and have no emotional outbreaks. It could never happen, nor can we expect that of our loving parrots. :heart: :wub: :heart:

:thanx: Shirley!!!

[morgavin]

Been thinking about the circumstances immediately proceeding the gnawing of my thumb. The neighbor lady Pepper REALLY likes had just left. jealousy.....has to be....

[Shirley]

Maybe.... but you never know....

[Jean]

Amazon like cockatoo males can become very jealous. I have a scar from a jealous rage.

[Junkzoo]

Very well said in the prev posts all!:thumbup:
And congrats to you Neil , for attempting to figure out why Pepper might have done what happened with you,(the neighbor) like Shirley said, maybe , but you never know,,,true.
That may have been the "reason",hard to say,,,
One thing to watch for when you go to have interact time with Pepper is, the activity,or "mood" the bird was in just b4 you went to it.
All "wound "up,,,screaming, playing "rough" with her toys,upside down hanging,wing displays etc. And if you go to the cage right after this, the bird still could be "wound up" and still in the mood it was, "roughplay" or mock agression,and you show up and catch a lil bit of it still left in the bird etc.
Or you got her reaction to the neighbor coming over, maybe riled up, afraid etc. and she let you know her feelings.
My 'Too will be a lil nervous after seeing a stranger peek in the room ,and i go in a lil later to take him out,,i can tell a lil that he is looking around,and a bit not that ready/friendly when i try to get him out.(like he knows something is up).
Not saying any of this is the case, but maybe spend a lil time "reading " the bird b4 interaction might help in curtailing this behavior in the future,,
you made GREAT progress with Pepper so far IMO,and i know this last episode will not affect your future work with her much,and you both will continue to do well together..
Like was said, a birds mind/behavior is compared to a two yr old,and other than on a few levels, does not change too much.
Not counting your bloody stump of a digit:eek: ,I think you are doing very good in the progress so far, just don't let this affect your relationship with Pepper,,
Keep up the good work,,,and let's hope both of you continue with the mostly positive work done so far,,,,:agree: :thumbup:

[Jean]

Good thread brought forward...