Shirley
07-11-2008, 06:37 PM
This pertains to Jack, my male Bearded Dragon, and Greenly, our Veiled Chameleon.
You don't need to read about Jack if you prefer not to read the gory details.
We returned from our vacation and all was fine - Troy did a superb job caring for everyone while working full time.
Both these events happened on Wednesday, the day after returned. I'll write about Greenly in a separate thread in the All Creatures forum.
A few of you may remember Jack - he is one of three dragons I have - Jack, Chloe, and Claire. This was taken in March with his "breeding colors".
http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/Jack/Jack-3185.jpg
They hatched a year ago this past February.
Wednesday, Jack died! :( :bawling:
At noon, I went to take them outside - Jack was lying down and his beard was coal black. He only gets the black beard when he is upset, stressed, frightened, or trying to impress the girls and mate, which he hasn't done since early March. Claire was lying partly on top of him - not unusual at all. His eyes were clear and open - I said something to him and he didn't move. I reached in, lifted him, and rigor mortise had slightly begun to set in already -- he was dead! I was and am devastated -- I have no idea what happened - he was absolutely fine and active and ate well the day before. I worried that possibly he'd eaten a lightning bug (firefly) as even one can kill a dragon if ingested. So I put him in the fridge and asked my son Troy (biologist, chemist) when he came home to see what was in his stomach.
This is the first time Troy was reluctant to do a dissection, but once he started, he was very careful and ID'd all his organs. Everything looked fine in color, and there were large fat deposits along his sides, which is likely normal, though snakes can certainly get overweight from being fed too often. His stomach was very full. It was full of his last meal plus the superworms that he ate the day before - not digested at all - about 7 of them. There wasn't a firefly there. So - we have no idea what happened. The girls are fine this morning, and they ate the worms at the same time Jack did.
He never became lethargic or lost appetite.
I'm devastated, and don't have a clue what happened. The girls are still fine.
This is what someone who is proficient in "Dragon Knowledge" told me:
Dear Shirley...
We are SO sorry to hear that Jack has died. We know that feeling of devastation that comes with the death of a well-loved dragon. Our sincere condolences. There is NOTHING that you could have done differently, or "better". Your dragons have had, from day one, the best care you've been capable of providing...along with tons of kindness and affection. You have done very well by all of them, including Jack. He had a WONDERFUL life with your family that he almost certainly would not have enjoyed had he landed in any other household.
We know how important it is to you to know "why" Jack crossed the Rainbow Bridge. Sometimes, even a necropsy will not provide the answer. But we think that in Jack's case, the reason may be discernable. Remembering that neither of us is a veterinarian, we'll explain what might have happened to Jack. At least then, you'll know that it doesn't follow that the two girls are in immediate danger.
The dissection that Troy performed, Jack's age, and the reports of his early development might have given clues to what caused Jack's demise. By the way, those big areas of brownish material are the fat pads where dragons store fat to draw from in lean times. They are perfectly natural. We will check among our necropsy photos for one that shows the fat pads and post it in the medical pics area.
From what you said, all of Jacks organs were the proper color, so he probably didn't have liver or kidney disease, which are two of the usual suspects in a dragon's death. What Troy could not be expected to know is the size of healthy dragon organs. Because of Jack's troubles as a baby dragon, his sudden death after displaying no symptoms, and his organs not being grossly enlarged, we suspect that Jack was a victim of a birth defect, the same one that killed many other "healthy" dragons.
This is a birth defect that has been linked to the inbreeding done to develop color "morphs". This particular birth defect causes the organs not to grow at the same rate as the dragon's body. Sooner or later the dragon reaches "critical mass" and the organs cannot sustain life. This often happens to dragons that were "failure to thrive" babies....ones that required a great deal of effort to save. The ones that drop to 8 grams at 12 weeks of age for example.
We've know of many dragons that died from this birth defect and they all followed the same life path as Jack. These dragons tend not to suffer a lingering decline, but instead die without warning.
The passing is fairly quick. They rarely reach one year of age, and almost always appear to be in the best health of their lives immediately prior to their death. In a strange twist, it's like they are so healthy, it kills them.
We hope that this information helps to ease any niggling fears that your husbandry might have been involved in Jack's death and that the other dragons are in peril. It's far more likely that there was a genetic cause.
Again, our deepest condolences in this sad time.
Jack, you handsome devil, PLAY ON!!
Dear Shirley....
Your description of Jack's organs post mortem continues to fuel our NON-professional opinion of a "critical mass" fatality. It is mainly the heart, lungs and kidneys that stop growing at a rate that will support life in dragons with the genetic defect that causes the critical mass crisis.
Shirley...
Your description of Jack's kidneys certainly seems to point towards them as being involved in his death. And, we still think his demise was most likely due to a genetic "critical mass" system failure. One thing we both remember from the necropsy we watched was that the kidneys were not so small as to cause comment. Not being able to compare Jack's to a normal set of organs means that we can't be 100% certain that his death had a genetic component, but we still feel strongly that it did.
You don't need to read about Jack if you prefer not to read the gory details.
We returned from our vacation and all was fine - Troy did a superb job caring for everyone while working full time.
Both these events happened on Wednesday, the day after returned. I'll write about Greenly in a separate thread in the All Creatures forum.
A few of you may remember Jack - he is one of three dragons I have - Jack, Chloe, and Claire. This was taken in March with his "breeding colors".
http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/Jack/Jack-3185.jpg
They hatched a year ago this past February.
Wednesday, Jack died! :( :bawling:
At noon, I went to take them outside - Jack was lying down and his beard was coal black. He only gets the black beard when he is upset, stressed, frightened, or trying to impress the girls and mate, which he hasn't done since early March. Claire was lying partly on top of him - not unusual at all. His eyes were clear and open - I said something to him and he didn't move. I reached in, lifted him, and rigor mortise had slightly begun to set in already -- he was dead! I was and am devastated -- I have no idea what happened - he was absolutely fine and active and ate well the day before. I worried that possibly he'd eaten a lightning bug (firefly) as even one can kill a dragon if ingested. So I put him in the fridge and asked my son Troy (biologist, chemist) when he came home to see what was in his stomach.
This is the first time Troy was reluctant to do a dissection, but once he started, he was very careful and ID'd all his organs. Everything looked fine in color, and there were large fat deposits along his sides, which is likely normal, though snakes can certainly get overweight from being fed too often. His stomach was very full. It was full of his last meal plus the superworms that he ate the day before - not digested at all - about 7 of them. There wasn't a firefly there. So - we have no idea what happened. The girls are fine this morning, and they ate the worms at the same time Jack did.
He never became lethargic or lost appetite.
I'm devastated, and don't have a clue what happened. The girls are still fine.
This is what someone who is proficient in "Dragon Knowledge" told me:
Dear Shirley...
We are SO sorry to hear that Jack has died. We know that feeling of devastation that comes with the death of a well-loved dragon. Our sincere condolences. There is NOTHING that you could have done differently, or "better". Your dragons have had, from day one, the best care you've been capable of providing...along with tons of kindness and affection. You have done very well by all of them, including Jack. He had a WONDERFUL life with your family that he almost certainly would not have enjoyed had he landed in any other household.
We know how important it is to you to know "why" Jack crossed the Rainbow Bridge. Sometimes, even a necropsy will not provide the answer. But we think that in Jack's case, the reason may be discernable. Remembering that neither of us is a veterinarian, we'll explain what might have happened to Jack. At least then, you'll know that it doesn't follow that the two girls are in immediate danger.
The dissection that Troy performed, Jack's age, and the reports of his early development might have given clues to what caused Jack's demise. By the way, those big areas of brownish material are the fat pads where dragons store fat to draw from in lean times. They are perfectly natural. We will check among our necropsy photos for one that shows the fat pads and post it in the medical pics area.
From what you said, all of Jacks organs were the proper color, so he probably didn't have liver or kidney disease, which are two of the usual suspects in a dragon's death. What Troy could not be expected to know is the size of healthy dragon organs. Because of Jack's troubles as a baby dragon, his sudden death after displaying no symptoms, and his organs not being grossly enlarged, we suspect that Jack was a victim of a birth defect, the same one that killed many other "healthy" dragons.
This is a birth defect that has been linked to the inbreeding done to develop color "morphs". This particular birth defect causes the organs not to grow at the same rate as the dragon's body. Sooner or later the dragon reaches "critical mass" and the organs cannot sustain life. This often happens to dragons that were "failure to thrive" babies....ones that required a great deal of effort to save. The ones that drop to 8 grams at 12 weeks of age for example.
We've know of many dragons that died from this birth defect and they all followed the same life path as Jack. These dragons tend not to suffer a lingering decline, but instead die without warning.
The passing is fairly quick. They rarely reach one year of age, and almost always appear to be in the best health of their lives immediately prior to their death. In a strange twist, it's like they are so healthy, it kills them.
We hope that this information helps to ease any niggling fears that your husbandry might have been involved in Jack's death and that the other dragons are in peril. It's far more likely that there was a genetic cause.
Again, our deepest condolences in this sad time.
Jack, you handsome devil, PLAY ON!!
Dear Shirley....
Your description of Jack's organs post mortem continues to fuel our NON-professional opinion of a "critical mass" fatality. It is mainly the heart, lungs and kidneys that stop growing at a rate that will support life in dragons with the genetic defect that causes the critical mass crisis.
Shirley...
Your description of Jack's kidneys certainly seems to point towards them as being involved in his death. And, we still think his demise was most likely due to a genetic "critical mass" system failure. One thing we both remember from the necropsy we watched was that the kidneys were not so small as to cause comment. Not being able to compare Jack's to a normal set of organs means that we can't be 100% certain that his death had a genetic component, but we still feel strongly that it did.