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lutlonow
05-28-2008, 03:31 PM
Hello,
I hope everyone is doing well. I would like to update on Rio's condition and find out if Dr. C or anyone else has any suggestions. I took Rio in earlier this month and the first trip consisted of a cbc, testing for zinc/lead levels, and a gram stain. I think there was one more thing but I don't remember and don't have the paperwork with me. The results came in that everything was normal aside from an elevated white blood cell count which indicated an infection. We started him on Baytril, that was on the 7th. We went back in on the 12th to do xrays. My vet (and I) literally looked at every little part of his little body on the xray and could find absolutely nothing that looked abnormal. He has been on Baytril for the 21 days that she wanted him on it, and his behavior still seems fine. His poops seem smaller to me, sometimes. But his toes are still doing the same thing. My vet said she could put his information up on a website where she could maybe get some other ideas, but nothing has happened since then. She also told me that she could request a phone consultation with another specialist and would let me know how much of a charge that would be, I will pay for one, but,within only 2 trips I have spent $587.00 and he is still in the same situation. I am so sad and frustrated and just don't know what else to do. I have searched the internet for hours and hours trying to come up with anything. The newest thing that I have discovered was an article on vegetables and how green peppers and cucumbers were some of the worst things to feed your bird. I had never read that before, and have been feeding Rio both of those all his life. I always wash them really well, but apparently, they are very contanimated with pesticides even if you wash them. I came across the article while doing a search for neurological defects. This article said that feeding them those veg. and others could have neurological side effects. I cannot believe that I could have been unknowingly poisoning my bird for years. Has anyone else heard of this? Also, Dr. C do you think that if he is in fact "poisoned" from insecticides from vegetables, is there anything I can do, perhaps some kind of flush?
Do you think that it is irreversable? Also, is there another method of testing for neurological defects that you know of that maybe we could be overlooking? I am sorry about all of the questions, I just don't want it to keep getting worse and I am out of ideas and aside from a phone consultation, so is my vet. Please, any suggestions and comments are welcome, and prayers are always welcome.
Thank you, Jennifer & Rio

Shirley
05-28-2008, 03:52 PM
Can you please add here Rio's info:
species, sex, age, etc? As a reminder - I'm thinking he's a Quaker, but I've been out of town for a week, as has Dr. Cook.

Thanks!
Shirley

Shirley
05-28-2008, 03:54 PM
Please list your source for the info you found on cucmbers and green peppers. I've never heard that, either... and wonder if it's even true... ?

lutlonow
05-28-2008, 04:10 PM
Hello, and thank you.
Rio is indeed a Quaker. He is a he ;) . He is 3 years old this month. He had zinc/lead toxicity when he was less than a year and scratched 3 holes in his neck that needed to be sutured. We did a chelater (sp?) and tube fed him for about 3 months and I literally held him in a towel 24-7 because he would get his little foot up under any collar that we put on him. Troughout the years he has had other minor health problems, an infection here and there and he would be put on Baytril. The paralysis in his toe has gone from 1 toe to all toes in his left foot for about 2 1/2 - 3 months. Not every day, but lately every day. There was discoloration in his foot, a dark gray that made his foot look like it was wet. That comes and goes and in fact, was there yesterday, but not today. He uses the foot just fine, climbs all around on me, anywhere else that he is allowed and climbs all over his cage. His behavior really hasn't changed. Still very talkative, interested and outgoing. He does seem to be eating less lately and I wonder if that is the antibiotics. He does this thing with his mouth... it's hard to explain, almost as if he has peanut butter in there, he usually does that more when he gets tired. My vet wonders if it is a habit?? We have done cultures and come up with nothing and even once put him under so my vet could stare inside his mouth really well, still nothing. I am just at a loss right now for ideas.:shrug:
Thanks for listening, reading.

lutlonow
05-28-2008, 04:20 PM
http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww18eii.htm

I don't think that I did the link right, but this is where I read it.
It says "neurotoxic", I am not certain that is the same as neurological effects, but that's how I interpreted it.

Eriisu-chan
05-28-2008, 04:22 PM
Wow... I hope the little guy gets better really soon...

lutlonow
05-28-2008, 05:19 PM
Thank You!! Me too and I am sure he wants to feel better too:(

scotty
05-28-2008, 06:16 PM
Poor baby,:( hope he feels better soon!!!

Shirley
05-28-2008, 06:25 PM
Dr. Cook has been out of state for a week, and has a lot of catching up to do at her clinic and other work she does...

she'll be online eventually and see this.

Your link says:

Cucumbers contain unacceptable levels of Dieldrin, an extremely carcinogenic pesticide that was banned in the U.S. over twenty years ago. Unfortunately it is persistent in the soil and is taken up by cucumbers. One of every fourteen cucumber samples from across the U.S. and Mexico contained this highly toxic compound. Substitute carrots, romaine lettuce, broccoli or radishes.

So, cucumbers are not toxic, but the pesticides used years ago, no longer allowed to be used, but that stay in the soil regardless, is what can cause problems if eaten in large enough quantities ... maybe. Carcinogenic means cancer-causing. It's not a neurotoxin, according to what is written here.

IMO, I wouldn't worry about it, but of course, you don't need to continue feeding cucumbers. I haven't fed cucumbers b/c of the water content and not much nutrition.

Shirley
05-28-2008, 06:53 PM
The article linked was written in 1997, btw...

Ellen K. Cook, DVM
05-29-2008, 11:46 AM
Hi Jennifer-

Sorry to hear Rio is still having problems. I would be concerned re: coelomic mass and/or CNS (central nervous system) disease. Both very difficult to diagnose w/o extensive (and expensive) testing, such as endoscopy, CT scan, MRI, etc.

I was glad to hear that Rio's lead/zinc levels were normal and that x-rays were OK. However, not everything shows on an x-ray, as you know :(

That is where endoscopy comes in. That would be the next step-endoscopy, which is placing a small tube (scope) into the belly (coelom) and looking around, maybe taking a biopsy if anything looks suspicious.

Keep a daily check on Rio's weight if he is not eating well.

lutlonow
05-29-2008, 12:14 PM
Thanks Shirley, I am just searching for any reason or explanation of why his toes are doing this. I am sure that when I saw the word "neurotoxin" I thought maybe I had a link to what could possibly be causing this. Thanks again for taking the time to look into this. I am not feeding him cucumbers or green peppers anymore, just in case. I guess I am just reaching for anything at this point to try and determine what the cause is and just jumped the gun a little bit.

lutlonow
05-29-2008, 12:22 PM
Thank you, Dr. Cook,
My vet here wouldn't be able to do an endoscopy, but there is a vet about 4 hours away that could do that. Thank you so much for giving me something to search about. I will be contacting Dr.Fiskett (the other vet that I have dealt with when he had zinc poisoning) and start getting information regarding CNS disease and the endoscopy. Do you know what the treatment is for that if in fact it is determined?
Thanks again, and God Bless You for being on here and giving your time and expertise.
Jennifer

Ellen K. Cook, DVM
05-29-2008, 02:12 PM
. Do you know what the treatment is for that if in fact it is determined?

There are so many possible causes of CNS disease that it would be a guess, Jennifer. It might be something medically manageable or possibly may need surgery. I am concerned since it does seem to be getting slightly worse.

It sounds like you have a good plan. Keep us posted about Rio. I know what it is to be worried about your baby :tighthug: I will keep you and Rio in my prayers.