View Full Version : Jim, Help Please.
Jim,
I was reading in the Womack bros thread your posts about - &+ reinforcement and your reply to Tina about ABC and changing one behaviour changes the other.
Well since Dave retired he is obviouSly around the birds a lot during the day, not long after, Toto started shouting every time he left the room, he still does it now. Dave did not go back in while Toto was shouting but although he waited for it to stop before entering the room he still continued.
Now my question is, can this be applied in this situation as Dave has to leave/enter the room at some point. he has also started to do it sometimes when I leave the room:shrug:
arcadiareptiles
05-08-2008, 11:34 AM
Jim,
I was reading in the Womack bros thread your posts about - &+ reinforcement and your reply to Tina about ABC and changing one behaviour changes the other.
Well since Dave retired he is obviouly around the birds a lot during the day, not long after, Toto started shouting every time he left the room, he still does it now. Dave did not go back in while Toto was shouting but although he waited for it to stop before entering the room he still continued.
Now my question is, can this be applied in this situation as Dave has to leave/enter the room at some point. he has also started to do it sometimes when I leave the room:shrug:
I could sooo need this too. Im having the same issues with chiko and would love the awnsers/insights of a master on this.
I could sooo need this too. Im having the same issues with chiko and would love the awnsers/insights of a master on this.
:roflmao2: :roflmao2: But Chiko wouldn't be as loud as Toto:funny: , having said that Ollie can make a right racket when he wants. It's so funny, he goes berserk whenever he sees Dave put shoes on, looks like the only answer would be to keep Dave housebound and confined to one room:rotflmao:
CocosMomma
05-08-2008, 12:24 PM
A - Dave Puts on His Shoes
B - Toto Shouts
C - Dave Takes off his Shoes
Can only change A and C, so Modification of Behavior:
A - Dave does NOT put on his shoes
B - Toto Does NOT shout
C - Dave has time to clean house, do laundry, pour Sue's wine
Problem(s) solved!:thumbup::emot-danc
D - Robin's bill is on its way 'cross the pond!
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
A little more info.
Toto is a typical M2, at times the cuddliest and at times the loudest bird on the planet.
Here are some behaviour patterns, he NEVER shouts/screams for food, when he sees food he does this really cute squeaky sound , like a toy sound. Now wrongly or rightly we respond to this and he get's food, the reason , he is asking nicely.
Example.
A. He sees food, he wants it.
B. He makes cute squeaky sound to ask.
C. He get's the food he desires.
PFB He knows if he makes squeaky sound he get's food, so sq sound is behaviour next time he wants goodies.
Oh and he also does this when he sees the spray bottle which he loves.
Another sound he has started recently is a really quite low "er" which also get's him attention, you can hardly hear it and he does this while resting.
His usual flock call is a wolf whistle which we always respond to with a reply or attention.
A - Dave Puts on His Shoes
B - Toto Shouts
C - Dave Takes off his Shoes
Can only change A and C, so Modification of Behavior:
A - Dave does NOT put on his shoes
B - Toto Does NOT shout
C - Dave has time to clean house, do laundry, pour Sue's wine
Problem(s) solved!:thumbup::emot-danc
D - Robin's bill is on its way 'cross the pond!
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: It's Ollie with the shoe issue, I'm liking C though:beerchug:
CocosMomma
05-08-2008, 12:42 PM
:rofl: :rofl: It's Ollie with the shoe issue, I'm liking C though:beerchug:
B minus on Robin's reading skills! (You see why/how Coco can get annoyed with me sometimes??? I'm not the sharpest pin in the cushion!):doh::roflmao2:
Sue, You did good with the ABC's. I would like to give this my full attention and think about it. Wanted to let you know so you wouldn't get loud. I'd probably still ignore you, you'd keep it up, I'd ignore, you'd get louder... I'd finally give in 'cause I can't take hearing it. You'd know getting louder works just like giving me a donut.
Ignoring loud calling is not productive if we're going to modify the behavior using the least intrusive methods.
What do you do or feel like when something is important to you and the person ignores you because your being loud to get their attention or a reaction of any kind.
Slot machine -- Once we win some $$$ once or twice. We pull the handle more and more even with no $$$ coming out. Machine ignores us for an hour then gives in and out comes the $$$. Will I stop? Will I pull for two hours next time?
I'll get back to ya. OK
Sue, I'm going to throw some things out and ask a few questions.
Using ABA (applied behavior analysis) it sounds like you and Dave are trying to teach Toto that quiet = Dave will appear. If Toto did learn this how could we consistently teach or reinforce it? Not being funny here but if quiet=Dave appear how would Dave know which quiet to show up for? How would Toto distinguish that if he was quiet at X time Dave appears but if quiet at Y time Dave does not appear. That's sending mixed messages, I would think.
Does Toto know how to learn? I mean, we know to read a book to learn, talk to a friend, go to school. Simple things like targeting are a good start. Heavily reinforcing a cued step-up can also start the learning process. While in the zone we can ask for a word, a wave, something new...They are learning to learn and we become the teacher they enjoy learning from.
Goal -- what's your goal? What would be a better or expectable behavior that could replace the loud calling? Calling is natural, and what they do. It's believed natural, as in hardwired, behaviors can be changed and I tend to agree. To me, calling doesn't need changed. How they call does.
Lets try an ABC on what's happening at the moment. However you see it is fine. We'll have a starting place. If you get stuck on one, we'll talk about that too.
A)
B) Loud calling
C)
PFB
Sue, I'm going to throw some things out and ask a few questions.
Using ABA (applied behavior analysis) it sounds like you and Dave are trying to teach Toto that quiet = Dave will appear. If Toto did learn this how could we consistently teach or reinforce it? Not being funny here but if quiet=Dave appear how would Dave know which quiet to show up for? How would Toto distinguish that if he was quiet at X time Dave appears but if quiet at Y time Dave does not appear. That's sending mixed messages, I would think.
Does Toto know how to learn? I mean, we know to read a book to learn, talk to a friend, go to school. Simple things like targeting are a good start. Heavily reinforcing a cued step-up can also start the learning process. While in the zone we can ask for a word, a wave, something new...They are learning to learn and we become the teacher they enjoy learning from.
Goal -- what's your goal? What would be a better or expectable behavior that could replace the loud calling? Calling is natural, and what they do. It's believed natural, as in hardwired, behaviors can be changed and I tend to agree. To me, calling doesn't need changed. How they call does.
Lets try an ABC on what's happening at the moment. However you see it is fine. We'll have a starting place. If you get stuck on one, we'll talk about that too.
A)
B) Loud calling
C)
PFB
Jim thanks so much for this donuts on their way:beerchug:
Well Dave's been retired nearly 2 years now and this started shortly after. It's not a massive problem because I've learned to block it out to a certain extent over the years. I agree it's a natural thing for them to call and Toto has learned a good way to get food and that he get's attention for wolf whistling.
OK.. A) Dave leaves room/house
B) Loud calling
2 C options
1 C) Dave returns but doesn't give attention.
2 C) Calling stops and Dave returns and gives attention.
Now thinking about this early on Dave would say "Toto" or "Shut up" not loudly, just say it in a normal tone. I kept saying "don't talk to him til he shuts up"
Could this have been the start?
Sorry, I missed the PFB....
Continues to shout because he knows Dave will return eventually?
Thanks for the donut.:)
I put the ABC's and PFB together.
=====
A) Dave leaves room/house
B) Loud calling
C) Dave returns but doesn't give attention.
C2) Calling stops and Dave returns and gives attention.
PFB Continues to shout because he knows Dave will return eventually
=====
Good. Your ABC's are all observable behaviors or things that are happening. Very clear. The PFB is good too. I'd say it's very likely spot-on with emphasis on eventually.
Lets look at C2. 'Calling stops and Dave returns and gives attention' wouldn't that be a behavior and consequence for a different ABC?
Lets work on 'A' (antecedent) first, if that's OK. If you're like me handing out consequences is deeply ingrained. For the most part it's what we do first to change behaviors. Do this and receive something good - do that and receive something disliked.
Ex: Do your job=get paid. Don't do job=get fired. Changing the 'A' for the person may be a win-win for them and the boss. A different work area, see out window, listen to music.... may fix the problem.
So, Sue, lets brain storm about the 'A'. What could be done different when putting Toto in the room or when leaving. If ya need a kick start, haha, I'll share some things I do but I'd rather focus on you, Dave and Toto.
Btw, Sue. I'm sure you know the basics. Window view, music, TV... I'm in hopes we look a little deeper into the problem and what could possibly be done to change it.
OK here's another donut to keep ya going.
Toto is in the same position he's been for years (at least 5)
Our lounge is L shaped, his cage is situated where he can see us when we're watching TV/ relaxing. We have recently gutted the lounge re decorated , new furniture but this behaviour started well before this.
Now there are 2 doors out of this room and we tend to use the one next to his cage mostly, we could try using the other one which is out of sight of him.
I've observed more today and he hasn't shouted as loudly, he sounds like a horse neighing.
Other triggers are he can see out to the garden and he sometime shouts at the garden birds and goes ballistic if he sees a cat.
TV and music are also something to compete with.
Other observations, Dave was rehearsing and Toto screamed from the moment he left at 7 and didn't stop even when he came in at 10.30. I left the room for most of the evening as I couldn't stand it any longer then we had to go to bed it was so bad.
When my Dad stays here when we're away, he says he's always quiet for the first 2 nights then on the following nights, as soon as he sits down to eat, he kicks off.
Here's another abc.
A) Toto wants the room to himself.
B) Screams the place down
C) Toto get's room to himself as everyone leaves.
PFB Screams to get the room to himself.
Whoa I have been doing a lot wrong over the years!
BUT if he screams to get Dave back, why scream to clear the room:shrug:
CocosMomma
05-09-2008, 12:03 PM
Does he ever scream when Dave IS in the room?
Does he ever scream when Dave IS in the room?
Yep, sometimes he starts when we settle down for the evening.
There's no definate pattern though, some nights he's as quiet as a mouse, others he could wake the dead.
I was once at a neighbours house across the road and he could be heard from there, so embarrasing!
I would say as a general rule he flock calls at night, then settles down, he shouts a bit when he hears us up in a morning, to be expected and not a problem.
As I type Dave is chopping veggies, door to lounge closed. I just peaked in on Toto and he's happily preening, quick glance up then back to preening. It's 5.15pm here.
I've had an idea to keep a diary of his behaviour and see if other than Dave leaving the room there's another factor.
I've asked Dave to use the other door for a while but we keep forgetting:doh:
CocosMomma
05-09-2008, 12:20 PM
When you say 'settle down for the evening', I am imagining you are in the lounge on one side, he on the other side of the 'L', again, he can see you - maybe the two of you are watching tv, relaxing, reading? Am I envisioning this right?
When the two of you settle down for the evening, does this coincide with his bed time, or is that several hours away?
When it is his bed time, is he 'cover me up guy' or does he prefer no cover?
Have you recently moved Ollie's cage?
(PS: I think the diary idea is great!)
When you say 'settle down for the evening', I am imagining you are in the lounge on one side, he on the other side of the 'L', again, he can see you - maybe the two of you are watching tv, relaxing, reading? Am I envisioning this right?
Absolutely.
When the two of you settle down for the evening, does this coincide with his bed time, or is that several hours away?
Varies, he doesn't have a specific bedtime as in being moved to another room. On the times when he's quiet, he usually settles down after he's shared our food with us around 7.30-8pm.
On the times he's noisy, he can go on til 11pm.
When it is his bed time, is he 'cover me up guy' or does he prefer no cover?
No cover, both mine have never been covered.
Have you recently moved Ollie's cage?
No and he's next to the settee, we tried swapping them round but it was earsplitting so close.
(PS: I think the diary idea is great!):thanx:
My answers in red above.
One thing I've decided is to keep the diary but also log what TV progs are on. Our behaviour, times we get home/go out etc.
Weekends v weekdays.
There msut be a reason, it's just finding it.
He's always been noisy, thats what M2's do but this constant shouting every time Dave leaves the room is not good. Even if he leaves for seconds he's off.
Something just ocurred to me, maybe it's not Dave, it could be a door squeaking or something.:shrug:
CocosMomma
05-09-2008, 12:50 PM
Something just ocurred to me, maybe it's not Dave, it could be a door squeaking or something.:shrug:
I wondered about a sound imitation too, Sue, when you first starting describing it because you have used other words to describe the sound like 'barking', etc. I know that Sammy can get a new sound and beat it into the ground... I am sure that your keeping track of things can do nothing but be a big help!
CocosMomma
05-09-2008, 12:53 PM
Sue, this is most likely way too easy of an answer, but:
You mentioned that he can 'scream you out of the room' and you expressed a sense on some occasions that he was trying to get the room to himself. I was wondering if that literally could be true - he could be wanting to bed-down and the two of you (on some occasions), perhaps when he is more tired, sensitive, etc., 'interfere' with his ability to get comfortable and get to sleep? With the two of you still up in his room? I know this wouldn't account for all of it, since it sounds nite time is not the only time he makes some of his noise.:agree:
Like I said - probably way too easy. I have seen with Coco that some nights after she is ready to go to bed, she doesn't want to 'be disturbed. Toto, being in his location, is rather used to a certain amount of the two of you being there before you finally go to bed for the night. Coco is used to me being in and out of her room. But some nights, when I come in, she puts up a terrible screaming fuss, resolved by turning the lights back out and getting the heck out of there! I try not to disturb her after she's gone to bed, but sometimes I just can't help it! Some nights she handles it well... other nights, horrible. So I only guess that those may be nights when she is extra tired and is no mood for my 'revolving door' games! :>)
Good input, Sue and keeping a log is great. More after I sort all this out in my head -- but for now.
You said:
There must be a reason, it's just finding it.
I'm sure there is. Behavior has function, servers a purpose.
Sometimes, in these situations we can spend so much time looking for the reason, which we may never know (there are so many variables), think nail biting. Our time would be better spent on teaching and reinforcing alternate behaviors. The old unwanted behavior will be replaced by the new desirable behavior.
Teaching a right-hander to use his left would be a good example. Why he uses his right hand we may never know.
Sometimes or even most often, there will be an extinction burst of the old behavior, which can be trying. If we recognize it as an extinction burst we can live with that. We know at some point the unwanted behavior will stop.
As I said above. More later. Need to let this roll around in the ole noodle.
Sue, this is most likely way too easy of an answer, but:
You mentioned that he can 'scream you out of the room' and you expressed a sense on some occasions that he was trying to get the room to himself. I was wondering if that literally could be true - he could be wanting to bed-down and the two of you (on some occasions), perhaps when he is more tired, sensitive, etc., 'interfere' with his ability to get comfortable and get to sleep? With the two of you still up in his room? I know this wouldn't account for all of it, since it sounds nite time is not the only time he makes some of his noise.:agree:
Like I said - probably way too easy. I have seen with Coco that some nights after she is ready to go to bed, she doesn't want to 'be disturbed. Toto, being in his location, is rather used to a certain amount of the two of you being there before you finally go to bed for the night. Coco is used to me being in and out of her room. But some nights, when I come in, she puts up a terrible screaming fuss, resolved by turning the lights back out and getting the heck out of there! I try not to disturb her after she's gone to bed, but sometimes I just can't help it! Some nights she handles it well... other nights, horrible. So I only guess that those may be nights when she is extra tired and is no mood for my 'revolving door' games! :>)
You could have a point there:agree:
Daves just called up to me to say the barbes ready, he's left the room and Toto's just squawked for about 30 secs. There just doesn't seem to be a pattern. Noting it in the diary which starts today.
Good input, Sue and keeping a log is great. More after I sort all this out in my head -- but for now.
You said:
There must be a reason, it's just finding it.
I'm sure there is. Behavior has function, servers a purpose.
Sometimes, in these situations we can spend so much time looking for the reason, which we may never know (there are so many variables), think nail biting. Our time would be better spent on teaching and reinforcing alternate behaviors. The old unwanted behavior will be replaced by the new desirable behavior.
Teaching a right-hander to use his left would be a good example. Why he uses his right hand we may never know.
Sometimes or even most often, there will be an extinction burst of the old behavior, which can be trying. If we recognize it as an extinction burst we can live with that. We know at some point the unwanted behavior will stop.
As I said above. More later. Need to let this roll around in the ole noodle.
Thanks Jim, maybe the diary will help, i know you like to study and i really respect that.
I'm hoping this is not just helping me!
The dairy is excellent, Sue. Hope my post didn't imply that all the work you've done so far is in vain. It certainly is not. Yes, I like to study and this helps me as much as I hope it helps you. I'm working on my people and written word skills. I have a great mentor that is guiding me and puts up with me. I think I have a good one. Her initials are Robin aka CocosMomma. Ya think I made a good choice?:)
Anyway back to the subject at hand. I remembered as I was trying to think of how to say what I want, that there is a great article called S-files addresses loud repetitive vocalizations on the GoodBird site. And best of all, it's by Lee McGuire (Susan's LLP teaching assistant) and the queen of R+, Susan G. Friedman, PhD.
Here's the link.
http://goodbirdinc.com/digitalmedia.html
You'll have to enter your name and email once you click
S-files addresses loud repetitive vocalizations - free download -- It's a pdf file.
If you don't read the whole thing please at least take note of the blocked section towards the bottom with the headings
Antecedent Changes to Pre-empt the Behavior
Consequence Changes to Reinforce Alternate Behaviors
New Skills and Teaching Strategies
It shows/tells what I'm trying to say much better than I'm doing.
Hope you can take away something from the article to help you change this behavior.
Thanks Jim, checking it out, no you didn't imply my work so far is in vain.
I just think having birds so long I should be wiser.
Still having a heatwave here, Toto was as good as gold last night, we ate at 7.20 he had some chicken with us , went back in his cage and was quiet as a mouse all evening.
Any changes in Toto's noise level?
scotty
05-16-2008, 09:40 AM
Thanks Jim, checking it out, no you didn't imply my work so far is in vain.
I just think having birds so long I should be wiser.
Still having a heatwave here, Toto was as good as gold last night, we ate at 7.20 he had some chicken with us , went back in his cage and was quiet as a mouse all evening.
Just like to add my $, maybe he's been asking for chicken...and he finally got it :confused:....... SORRY! :)...Boston creme please
Well, Scotty. No need to be sorry. Eating chicken and being quiet could be an important part of the puzzle. What's it tells us other than Toto likes chicken?
CocosMomma
05-16-2008, 09:49 AM
Well, it tells us Scotty has been eating a lot of chicken lately because she's been awfully qui.. :foot-tap:(UGH)... stop that:doh: - she's listening! And this is about Toto! Not fer nothing, but there's been a sale at the local mall nearly every day!!!!!!!!!!!!:wavey:
:rofl::rofl:
(PS: I'm also curious how's the diary comin' along, Sue??):wavey:
scotty
05-16-2008, 09:54 AM
Jim...it tells us that he likes people food....... yum! :) Please may I have some more? do birds have the smell sence like we do, can they smell something good cooking and want it :confused:
scotty
05-16-2008, 10:01 AM
Well, it tells us Scotty has been eating a lot of chicken lately because she's been awfully qui.. :foot-tap:(UGH)... stop that:doh: - she's listening! And this is about Toto! Not fer nothing, but there's been a sale at the local mall nearly every day!!!!!!!!!!!!:wavey:
:rofl::rofl:
(PS: I'm also curious how's the diary comin' along, Sue??):wavey:
Not for nuthin.... but Ive been buying LOTS of chicken and preparing it diff. ways, were having sales on chicken here too :rotflmao:
Jim...it tells us that he likes people food....... yum! Please may I have some more? do birds have the smell sence like we do, can they smell something good cooking and want it Haha Scotty. Yes it tells us he likes people food. I don't think their sense of smell is as good as ours. It probably had little or no reason to evolve to a high level in their evolutionary process.
So really, why do you, anyone, think Toto was quiet after eating chicken with Sue and Dave?
CocosMomma
05-16-2008, 03:04 PM
Can't scream with yer mouth full!
:roflmao2:
(Well, you probably can....):doh:
Can't scream with yer mouth full!
:roflmao2:
(Well, you probably can....):doh::funny: Yep... can't disagree there.
Here, with my wife, if I scream with my mouth full...:eek:
Think: frying pan to head.:)
scotty
05-16-2008, 06:40 PM
Haha Scotty. Yes it tells us he likes people food. I don't think their sense of smell is as good as ours. It probably had little or no reason to evolve to a high level in their evolutionary process.
So really, why do you, anyone, think Toto was quiet after eating chicken with Sue and Dave?
I think his tummy was full and he was quite content:foot-tap: or what Robin said:funny:
PLUS he enjoyed hanging with them
You lot are cracking me up here:roflmao2: :roflmao2:
Update..... All last weekend he shouted a bit when Dave left the room but nothing major. At night he was quiet Sat/Sun/Mon/Tues/Weds Then Thurs Dave went out for rehearsal and he screamed the place down all night.
Again I had to vacate the room it was earsplitting.
Previously we used to share one to one quality time when Dave was out. Dave got in around 10.00 and T continued to shout (I was back in the room at this time).
One thing I did notice was the moon was nearly full.
Could I have a Weretoo:yikes:
CocosMomma
05-17-2008, 03:27 PM
A Weretoo? I LOVE IT!!!:rofl:
Sounds like Toto might have a 'thing' for Dave!:nuts:
Shirley
05-18-2008, 02:02 PM
Hi Sue!
I finally discovered and read this entire thread... and will share my opinions and thoughts... fwiw...
I don't think a cockatoo ever really wants a "room to themselves".
I do think a predictable bedtime is good... same wakeup and bedtime is what comes natural to animals... and children.
We cover the three larger parrots' cages -- African Greys and Rose-breasted Cockatoo. They like it, and they settle down for the night. Ideally, they would have a "bedroom" like Ellen's two cockatoos have. Their cages are partially covered, but they have a room of their own. I wish our larger birds had a sleeping room - I don't think they get enough uninterrupted sleep, but they don't seem to mind. They are quiet.
Play-Doh, our Senegal, screams a lot more on the weekends when Steve is home - he is happy if Steve comes over and takes him out, talks to him, pets him, does a couple tricks with him, and then puts him back in his cage. Shelby (cockatoo) was never so easily amused, however, and would scream ALL WEEKEND for Steve, b/c sometimes she was allowed on his shoulder much of the day while he worked around the house/yard, and other days on the weekends, she was not allowed such fun. For me, she was a super bird all day, happy with amusing herself on the tree stand, getting the occasional scritch as I passed through the room, but at 3:30, she'd bring the house down with her flock calls for Steve when he came home.
Hey ~ Sue
I've been really thinking on this. You having to go to another room doesn't sound good to me - for you or Toto. We're only human and we can get resentful, which isn't good for us or the bird.
My preferred strategy when talking about behavior is to guide the person working on the behavior change in a way that they figure it out for their self for their bird. I'll talk about the black and white analyses first and then tell what I do here.
1) Toto wants to be with Dave and you. He leaned somewhere in the past that loud vocalization will earn being with a person. Be loud and get paid. Paid=being with human.
2) Ignoring Toto's hard work is probably not going to work for you or him. From what I've been reading it isn't working or at least not too good. Not rewarding unwanted behaviors is one thing. Ignoring unwanted behavior that has been previously reward, worked before, is another.
3) If Toto loved being in his room more than being with you and Dave he'd probably not come out much or get loud to be with you guys. If being out wasn't very exciting or rewarding he'd likely be quiet in his room. No reason to be loud and get taken out to be with those boring humans.
Suggestion for now. I'd do what I had to do, within reason, to keep peace in the house. If that meant getting him out 50 times a day for short periods, I'd do it. At the same time, I'd keep notes and analyse the situation.
---
How it works at the Stewart house.
Jim comes home, birds call, Jim answers, if birds get louder, Jim gets them out. If Jim plays and gets all excited, then puts then back, birds get even louder!
Same as above but this time Jim takes them in the bedroom, lays down, turns on TV, little attention on birds, a few minutes they go back in room. Or Jim gets them out goes about his business (dishes, pc time, watching TV down stairs, etc.) then puts them back in a few minutes.
So with that said my opinion on why this works to keep the noise level down. It's not always that great to be with Jim. The room ain't such a bad place to be with all these toys, window... compared to what Jim is doing.
This strategy works for me. I see no aversive methods used, their choice as what to do. By me setting the stage for success, for them and me, we all stay happy.
I'm really concerned about this loudness. I know it can be very trying. I'll say it again. For now I'd do what it took to keep the peace. We can work on changing the behavior easier when we're not stressed out. Not saying you are. I know I'd probably be.:)
CocosMomma
05-18-2008, 04:12 PM
Interesting, Jim. The way you describe what happens at the Stewart house is similar to what happens at The Coco Palace.;) When I first get home and Coco starts calling (incessantly), I go to her room and sit and knit or do other quiet activity for awhile (15-20 min). When I leave, she gets a special treat (again, harder to talk with the mouth full)... it is really, I believe, a bit of a distraction ("mom just left the room, but hmmmm this walnut is de'lish!") Sort of like Toto and the chicken dinner! But it has been a process of working on this:
A. Mom comes in the room.
B. Coco watches mom do quiet activities.
C. Mom leaves the room; Coco gets a treat.
Then I do some other things, come back, we have some clicker time together, leave, come back... When I first get home I have to check in on her fairly often because she's geared up and is calmed by seeing me pop in every so often. But with the first thing of my being in the room doing my knitting, it is as if she's saying, "I waited for that? I screamed for that? It's not that exciting watching her knit!" Yet, she does like to have some time with me because she hasn't seen me all day. I also turn up the radio fairly loud when I leave because if she hears me talking in the other room to Steve, that can get her going too.
I spend time in their room too, Robin. I mix it up. I like your ABC's. I'll do mine. First though, I don't think vocalizing is something we can turn on and off, put on 100% cue or totally change. At least not us average care givers.
Goal: Expectable noise for me while meeting their needs.
Background: They call loudly when I come home or when they want to be with me.
ABC's for the behavior I want. Expectable call.
A) Come home
B) Expectable call
C) I answer
C2) I appear
PFB - Will try low level call first to get me to answer or appear.
If they call too loud
A) Come home
B) Loud repetitive calling
C) No answer
C2) No appear
PFB - Loud calling is less likely to happen, do to experience of first ABC. i.e. Expectable calling gets rewarded.
CocosMomma
05-18-2008, 06:41 PM
First though, I don't think vocalizing is something we can turn on and off, put on 100% cue or totally change.
I don't know, Jim, hubby might say otherwise... he says Coco has me WELL trained. While my level of acceptable noise is pretty hi, his is not. He will bring to my attention: "Excuse me, darling, you are BEING summoned!! NOW GO!":funny::funny::funny:
==
All I can (all WE ALL can do) is go by what we observe. I can be gone all day - hubby home all day. Coco knows who's here and who's not. She doesn't make a peep. The rare occasions she does scream (not call), he walks in and finds 1) an empty food bowl; 2) problem with music. One time, a toy issue. Other than that; she doesn't need him to "appear". Not suprisingly, if the exterminator or meter reader come during the day, she DOES call... because she hears a vehicle come home and thinks it is me. Then he has to go in several times and tell her it wasn't me before she will believe him!
When she does hear me pull in the driveway, I usually hear her calling me before I open the truck door. She then gives me what she considers a reasonable time. If I don't appear, she ups the ante. If I get involved in other things and don't go see her fairly soon, then I broke the 'rules'... the pattern... what we have established she can expect. Sure she's gonna get louder! Then I have to wait a little while before going in. That all starts when I get distracted and don't go in within what we both have agreed is a "reasonable amount of time" that she can be patient! And I will say that some days she can be more patient than others, just like me!
:roflmao2:
I don't know, Jim, hubby might say otherwise... he says Coco has me WELL trained. While my level of acceptable noise is pretty hi, his is not. He will bring to my attention: "Excuse me, darling, you are BEING summoned!! NOW GO!":funny::funny::funny:Haha, Robin.:) I'm a nut when it comes to words. I too may be 'trained' but for me thinking of it as expected responses, expected routine, consistency, keeps the them/me out of the picture. It's one of many things I've found that works for me. Even-Stephen, equal patenters, 50-50, no leaders, no followers, no bosses....
Anyway, more thoughts on this ignoring unwanted behaviors. An important aspect of changing behavior is small approximations. Going from loud to quiet is a big step. Going from - loud repetitive calling, to loud calling, to not so loud repetitive calling, to not so loud calling, and so forth, would be setting them up for success. Win-win that could turn into so much more. Not to mention the fun the journey should bring.:D
CocosMomma
05-19-2008, 06:04 PM
I agree, Jim - on all fronts - small approximations, and also: compromise. I do it with my husband (usually);); and I do it with Coco. The amount of time she is willing to have patience, to give me a chance to get home, get my shoes off, etc. is something we have grown to (through small approximations and lots of compromise) to the point where usually, it works well. Of course, there are days where she has less patience than others. Also, days when I go past the compromise point, and she lets me know it. Then, other days when she'll let me slide a little on the compromise time before she needs to see my face and get a little of my time.
In all respects, it is not really different than the compromises and patience we use in human relationships! I can only speak to Coco's needs and preferences, and can say that ROUTINE is a BIG DEAL! If she knows she can expect certain behaviors from me, than in return, I know I can expect certain behaviors from her. If I deviate, then I CAN expect an unsure or unsteady result in her behavior. (That's my bad then!)
We do have a different weekend routine than weekday, but an expected routine nonetheless. And there is routine to the n-th degree... when I enter the room I may do one of 3 things always, and she will respond accordingly... of course this has developed over many years.:)
Jim & Robin, lots of the same behaviours here too.
The one BIG difference is Dave is retired and I work from home so we're always around (well mostly).
Toto shouts the minute Dave leaves the room, be it to go to another room or out in the garden. Mostly it's bearable but frustrating as to why he's doing it. He has been quitet at night all over the weekend and last night.
Tonight i'm dreading as Dave is rehearsing again and that's what kicked him off last week.
I am going to observe/log EVERY action before Dave leaves.
It's a full moon tonight so "Weretoo" may appear again!:rofl:
He's also hormonal as he's madly in love with his indestructibell at the moment, snuggling up to it , bashing his beak on it (he does that to things he loves, inc me:funny: ).
scotty
05-20-2008, 11:59 AM
Sue, you know Andrew my Tiel, screams continually:eek: when I take my dogs in the yard, as soon as I walk in, he stops, and another wierd thing that Andrew does is scream if I read the paper where he can see me. I have to go into another room so I can read in piece...go figure...:shrug:
Oh.... and he loves to knock poor Tiki off the perch :shrug2: he's bad :agree:
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