Need a Dr.C Suggestion!

[Kirby]

This might do better off in the "Behaviour Section" but I'll take anyone's advice input on this.

As everyone read before, Kirby my little lovebird has recently started becoming nasty to Skittles, jumping on her when he wants something she has, etc etc..

I had many suggestions, from a bigger cage to A.S.A.P Separation. Well they have been separated and Skittles now resides in a budgie cage inconveniently placed on the computer desk.

Now, comes the thrill of when they're out together. Kirby will LATCH himself onto her cage when we approach the desk and refuse to let go without biting if we try to take him off. He will also attack her if she tries to interact with us and when we remove her from the picture (bringing her over to the bed or downstairs) he calls and calls and calls or sulks on his cage. Of course, when we go to get him because we feel bad, he bites and runs away.

He argues with her out of the cage, on the floor, on our shoulders. If they're out and we open a drawer across the room he attacks her from hearing the noise. He's actually physically pushed her off the dresser when he can't get his own way. And there's poor little Skittles "pip pip pip'ing" on the floor all worried.

I am so FRUSTRATED with this stupid bird. (I call him stupid out of anger)

I'm sorry, but if this keeps up, for the sake of Skittles and her older age, he will have to get rehomed. Nothing I do, a loud clap, sharp NO, snapping fingers, NOTHING will break up their arguing.

What the bloody heck do I do? If theyre not loving each others company and grooming each other, Kirby is at her throat!

Behaviour Observations:
- Will attack Skittles when she shows interest in something I am doing
- Kirby will sulk when we show attention to Skittles more than him
- He will ignore all attention when we give it to him
- He becomes aggresive more in the mornings and evenings
- Has lately, become VERY nasty to myself when I change the water/food

- Skittles has not attacked me or bitten me
- She couldn't care less that Kirby is away from her or sulking

[Shirley]

Lauren, Dr. Cook cannot get on the board tonight, but dictated the following to me over the phone:

What does "sulking" look like?

Can you describe the actual behavior?
Where is he sitting?
What do his feathers look like?
What do his eyes look like?
Is he vocalizing?
Why would this be called "sulking"?

We must be careful not to attach labels to behavior.

We cannot presume to know what Skittles or Kirby are thinking. All we can know is that behavior that is repeated is being rewarded in some manner. What that reward might be is not always obvious. What I find rewarding, you may find simply repulsive, and vice versa.

For now: 1) Keep them separated. Do not allow them out together.

2) Are these birds getting enough sleep? At least 8-10 hrs dark, quiet, sleep, no TVs, no talking, etc.

3) Begin teaching a behavior that is incompatible with the undesirable behavior. In other words: Move Skittles' cage outside the room when Kirby is out with you during a teaching session. Or, simply cover her cage so they cannot see each other or beak each other when Kirby is out with you.
The most elegant behavior “fix” is the simplest one possible.

4) The first step in teaching is teaching your bird to target -- touch the target. See article on this board that teaches targeting at this link:



http://www.thebirdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4325

5) Watch my video; it is 7 min long and free:
http://www.canisfilmfestival.com/submissions_09.html


6) Teaching simple trick behaviors refocuses the bird's attention so you can replace an undesirable behavior with a desirable one. While you are doing this, you are BOTH having fun and building trust with each other.

These things really DO work, and they can work fairly quickly, depending on your time available to teach. Do not leave Skittles out of the fun; work with her, too. Less than 5-10 min sessions several times a day.

[Kirby]

Thank you Shirley for talking to Dr.C !!!! This is much appreciated.

So this is what happens when Skittles is interacting with us.

What does "sulking" look like?

Can you describe the actual behavior?
Where is he sitting?
He is usually sitting either beside his cage, on the rope perch closest to the front corner or on top of the cage.

What do his feathers look like?
Kirby gives us the traditional angry look, neck feathers are fluffed and he's showing obvious either disgust or disliking

What do his eyes look like?
Usually when he is interacting with us, his eyes are very round and open. When he is "sulking" his eyes are very beady and have a 'glaring' look to them.

Is he vocalizing?
For the first usually 10 minutes of having Skittles say, on the bed with us while we're watching a movie, he will be sitting there looking miserable and quiet, then after the 10 ish minutes, he'll either go play by himself or start doing his "lost" chirp. Which he did when I first got him and left him in the other room while i was in the shower.

Why would this be called "sulking"??
I know it's a bad idea to compare lovebirds with human children. But when you compare the two in actions and behaviour... they're familiar!
When Kirby "Sulks", and I call it that, because we will invite him over to spend time with us and when we offer our hand/toy etc... to come over, he'll fluff up and run away.
We k now he WANTS to be with us, but him acting like that shows IMO that HE wants to be the centre of attention. When he is the only one with attention, he always stands up tall and his eyes are VERY round. He also has a 'flat head' and get's his traditional floofer cheeks.


I had Chris watch him out of the corner of his eye and when we're not looking at him, Kirby will be watching myself, Chris and Skittles. When we look at him to make sure he's ok, he will quickly look away and crack his beak.

I don't want anyone to get the idea I am trying to ignore Kirby and neglect him because of his behaviour. He literally brings it on himself.
If we bring him over with Skittles and they're snuggling, and as a PERFECT example of Kirby's attitude/reaction: if we say "Hi Skittles, Hi Kirby" and put Skittles name first, NO LIE, he gets so angry and flys back to his cage.

He has FULL FLIGHT so him not being able to make it to the bed is not an issue.

I will give the target training a shot when the warm weather comes. That way one can be outside while the other is indoors. No matter where they are in the house they will call and create a HUGE racket

[jimleasure]

lauren,
are these s/s lovies? from the breeders i have talked to the actions are opposite of what i have heard. they have told me it is usually the female that becomes moody and jealous, ect. and the male on the whole keeps his niceness.

[Kirby]

Hmmmmmm... what are s/s!!?!?!

I don't know what their genders are other than an approximate guess from the vet and both their previous owners. And due to an insane cost to get them DNA'd via Vet.. and no guts to pull a feather....

I have had Kirby for almost a year and no eggs (his one and only owner had him since he was a baby for two years and no eggs)
Skittles I have had since July/August last year and no eggs. Her owner has had her lay eggs in the past.

Kirby is on the left and Skittles is on the right
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f199/skygtrr34/P1000135.jpg

Kirby has NEVER been one to enjoy being pet or scratched, and I've accepted that. He shows his affection by grooming us and sitting on our shoulder. He's gone through his moody times and grumpy phases.. but so has Skittles. She's more Jell-o than anything... flip her on her back, rub her tummy, play with her beak..

[Shirley]

Thank you Shirley for talking to Dr.C !!!! This is much appreciated.

So this is what happens when Skittles is interacting with us.

What does "sulking" look like?

Can you describe the actual behavior?
Where is he sitting?
He is usually sitting either beside his cage, on the rope perch closest to the front corner or on top of the cage.

What do his feathers look like?
Kirby gives us the traditional angry look, neck feathers are fluffed and he's showing obvious either disgust or disliking

We do not know what "angry, disgusting, etc" look like in a bird. We only can describe observable behavior.


What do his eyes look like?
Usually when he is interacting with us, his eyes are very round and open. When he is "sulking" his eyes are very beady and have a 'glaring' look to them.When the pupils of his eyes become very tiny, that is called "pinning". Some birds pin for no reason. Some pin before they bite. Pinning with some birds is body language we humans must observe and respond to appropriately -- get out of their way... leave, stop the behavior YOU are doing that is causing the bird to pin or express body language that if you DON'T stop, a more pronounced form of body language may follow, such as flight, or a bite.


Is he vocalizing?
For the first usually 10 minutes of having Skittles say, on the bed with us while we're watching a movie, he will be sitting there looking miserable and quiet, then after the 10 ish minutes, he'll either go play by himself or start doing his "lost" chirp. Which he did when I first got him and left him in the other room while i was in the shower.
Again, we don't know if he is miserable. We cannot assign emotion or feelings or thoughts to him, only behavior we observe. You are trying to shape his behavior with positive reinforcement, and that does not require that you read his mind or know his emotions.


Why would this be called "sulking"??
I know it's a bad idea to compare lovebirds with human children. But when you compare the two in actions and behaviour... they're familiar!
When Kirby "Sulks", and I call it that, because we will invite him over to spend time with us and when we offer our hand/toy etc... to come over, he'll fluff up and run away.
We k now he WANTS to be with us, How do you know this? (that he wants to be with you - that's not a challenge, it's a question asking for the observable behavior)

but him acting like that shows IMO that HE wants to be the centre of attention. When he is the only one with attention, he always stands up tall and his eyes are VERY round. He also has a 'flat head' and get's his traditional floofer cheeks.


I had Chris watch him out of the corner of his eye and when we're not looking at him, Kirby will be watching myself, Chris and Skittles. When we look at him to make sure he's ok, he will quickly look away and crack his beak.

I don't want anyone to get the idea I am trying to ignore Kirby and neglect him because of his behaviour. He literally brings it on himself.
If we bring him over with Skittles and they're snuggling, and as a PERFECT example of Kirby's attitude/reaction: if we say "Hi Skittles, Hi Kirby" and put Skittles name first, NO LIE, he gets so angry and flys back to his cage.

He has FULL FLIGHT so him not being able to make it to the bed is not an issue.

I will give the target training a shot when the warm weather comes. That way one can be outside while the other is indoors. No matter where they are in the house they will call and create a HUGE racket
I know this is sounding nit-picky and complicated, but it's very important, essential, that you leave out the feelings/attitude/thoughts you are assuming the bird has, and work with his behavior - observable things that you can see and hear. Patience and persistance - you can cover one bird's cage while working through the bars of the other with targeting and a favorite treat that is offered ONLY during teaching sessions. It works. It takes a little time, but it works.

I assigned emotion and thoughts to Play-Doh, our male Senegal, for over 2 yrs. I failed at every attempt to "get along" with him. He bit Dr. C. and drew blood on more than one occasion. She then began working with him, and had him snuggling in her neck after several sporadic visits, maybe 1 every 2 weeks, sometimes once a week, spending 5-10 min with him. It wasn't until I READ and STUDIED the writings of Dr. Susan Friedman more than once, DID the homework assigned me by Dr. C AND Jim - similar to what is being asked of you here - attended a couple of live lectures by Dr. Friedman and others, as well as Dr. Cook's... Listened to Jim on the phone more than a few times, and then I FINALLY started to work with Play-Doh from a whole new attitude and approach, and in LESS THAN A WEEK he was stepping up for me and taking food from my fingers without lunging, biting, flying away, or screeching at me. For the first time, the SCIENCE of behavior is finally making sense to me -and it is working -- with the birds and with the kids I teach. :emot-danc

Dr. C has clients all day and likely will be on after 5:00 or 6:00 today (EST)

Hope this helps in the meantime. :wub:

[Shirley]

Just read your answer to JimL -- GREAT Question! I thought they were sexed.

DNA sexing -- yes... it's always good to know ALL the OBSERVABLE behavior you can know, and their male/femaleness is part of the observable behavior. Thanks Jim! Great call! :thumbup:

[Kirby]

When the pupils of his eyes become very tiny, that is called "pinning". Some birds pin for no reason. Some pin before they bite. Pinning with some birds is body language we humans must observe and respond to appropriately -- get out of their way... leave, stop the behavior YOU are doing that is causing the bird to pin or express body language that if you DON'T stop, a more pronounced form of body language may follow, such as flight, or a bite.

After experiencing Kirby's bites and FINALLY understanding the signs he gives when he is NOT happy with something I'm doing, his eye pinning (I couldn't remember what it was called :emot-danc ) is something he does while combined with his hunched over fluffed up look and on occasion, beak grinding. If those signs are ignored he will bite. Even if he shows one, pinned eyes or just fluffed up around his neck, he is grumpy or unhappy with SOMETHING (and yes, follows that with a bite)


[/COLOR]How do you know this? (that he wants to be with you - that's not a challenge, it's a question asking for the observable behavior)

Unfortunately, the more I think about it, I have NO idea if he wants to be with us.

I know this is sounding nit-picky and complicated, but it's very important, essential, that you leave out the feelings/attitude/thoughts you are assuming the bird has, and work with his behavior - observable things that you can see and hear. Patience and persistance - you can cover one bird's cage while working through the bars of the other with targeting and a favorite treat that is offered ONLY during teaching sessions. It works. It takes a little time, but it works.

Oh QUIET Shirley! It doesn't sound nit picky AT ALL :wub: I want to make Kirby happy without becoming 'Birdy-Whipped'. I love everyone's input and ideas to help solve this!!!

I wish I could catch all of his reactions on camera/video. It would make this so much easier to explain.

[CocosMomma]

Lauren, they are both gorgeous... I love that picture.:wub: And, I was thinking, gosh isn't Kirby cute - that sweet face? Are you just making it up that he's picking on Skittles??? You must be imagining things - look at that sweeeet face!!!!:funny::rofl: Absolutely adorable!

[Shirley]

You're doing GREAT Lauren, simply b/c your DESIRE to learn how to teach Kirby and learn his body language and react appropriately is 1/2 the learning curve!!

Dr. Friedman teaches with little videos all the time --- SHOWING us how to observe behavior, how to see what the human is doing that is reinforcing the behavior that human is actually trying to change... very enlightening... she'll put it in slow motion sometimes to show exactly what to look for IN THAT BIRD. Remember, to quote her, Behavior is a study of ONE.

Once you understand the science of behavior, the ABCs of behavior, the reasoning behind teaching simple targeting through the cage bars for starters, then outside the cage, you'll see that it doesn't matter anymore WHO the bird is... it's that bird's behavior you are working with, applying the same scientific principles and techniques, tailored to THAT bird's behavior.

If the bird does NOT want to learn, then stop and come back later. Later could be a minute, or a day.

I wish you could watch Dr. Cook's 37-min DVD that takes you through this step by step AS Play-Doh learned -- not after he "knew it all". It's amazing.

And watching her patience, hearing her say, "That's OK. If he doesn't want to do this now, then that's fine" or "OH! So you wanted my OTHER finger to step up on!" Lots to observe and learn there. Seeing the "light bulb" turn on for Play-Doh -- that moment of trust being built... :agree:

[Kirby]

I just thought of something though....

I AM BIRDY-WHIPPED!

I have found myself ASKING Kirby if he would like to step up. So here I am wandering around the house with Kirby and when I need him off my shoulder:

"Kirby would you mind stepping up for me?"

Or when I'm REALLY frustrated:

"Kirby, are you actually physically capable of stepping up at this exact moment?"

[Shirley]

I'm confused... we ALWAYS ask first. Never command. If the bird does not want to step up, then that is fine. Walk away. If he is target trained... he'll likely step up because that bond of trust is built... and when target trained, it's much easier to target the bird to step OFF your hand or shoulder than if not target-trained.

This is not about dominance, or winning. It's all about "behavior" ...
Behavior that is repeated is being reinforced. Behavior that is NOT repeated is NOT being reinforced. :agree:

[Kirby]

He's usually great with stepping up. Anywhere but in his cage.. and not even Chris' mum is stupid enough to attempt that.. Unless you have a death wish!

Now that he can fully fly, he'll step-up and then fly back to his cage...

[Shirley]

And that's OK -- his flight back to his cage is more reinforcing to him than staying on your hand. As you work with him, build trust, target-train, get a relationship going, he'll find it more and more reinforcing to be on your hand - but as you build that bank account of trust, be careful, as one withdrawal from that trust at this stage will take you back to square one or earlier.

One behavior at a time... reinforce for stepping up. Then reinforce for staying on your hand or the step-up stick for a few seconds, and so on.

[Jim]

Great discussion!

I'll add my two cents. It's been my experience that eye pinning isn't always a sign a bite is coming, discomfort or wanting us to leave them alone. My boys and other birds I've been around, will pin their eyes when they are excited about what is about to happen, which can be something good or bad. My boys will pin their eyes BIG time when they see me getting a piece of pizza, or any good stuff, out of the fridge.

As for building trust, setting up the environment (stage) for success works GREAT. Every time the bird is with us if we set things up (as best we can) so there is no discomfort to the bird --"setting the sage for success"-- we have built trust. The more they trust us the more they are willing to trust us. When, what to them, is an uncomfortable situation. They look to us for guidance or security because they trust us. History of experiences or outcomes is what all future behaviors are based on.

Lauren, you're asking and wanting to learn - that's great! Shirley has given excellent advice. Working with two birds is not easy even when they are separated or out of sight of each other. I know this one all too well. I would do what Shirley has suggested and work with them separately and forget what the other is thinking or feeling while working with one of them. We need to build trust with "each bird" on an individual basis. Study of one. Once we have the trust of both birds, then and only then, should we move on to both out together interacting with us, encouraging and rewarding good behavior. If we go too fast before the trust is there we are likely to fail or at least be stepping backwards. Much less losing the trust we have built.

[Kirby]

Well.. Kirby enjoys nutriberries and his molting feed as treats.... so I better be prepared to have my vacuum upstairs 24/7 :p

[Shirley]

Make the treat teeny so he eats it quickly and is ready for more learning. Watch the videos I linked and you'll see what I mean... :D

[Ellen K. Cook, DVM]

Unfortunately, the more I think about it, I have NO idea if he wants to be with us.

Lauren-this is a wonderful insight-it made my heart sing :thumbup: You are on your way with Kirby!

Write that down.."I have NO idea what Kirby is thinking/feeling" plus, you had some fabulous descriptions of Kirby's body language before he bites-keep up the great work!

:yougogirl

[Kirby]

:) Thanks Dr.C!!!!

It is VERY hard to mistake his vulture look for a look of "I want to snuggle" haha

We'll work on it with him... I got a call from Chris.. his mum had put them back in the same cage because they 'looked sad'. I couldn't figure out how Kirby always got out of his cage when we weren't home.. I just figured it out lol

[Kirby]

Well.. no arguing ...We tried a little bit of targetting when I got home last night... but his MAIN focus was getting his treats instead of listening.

So.. I said not right now and then he passed out in his happy hut on my chest ....

He was lying on his back and had his head hanging out just fast asleep.

[Shirley]

Have you watched the targeting videos first? It's SO important that you do this technique correctly... the treat is not a bribe. He touches, then surprise, he's praised and rewarded with a treat. Don't hold the treat next to the target. It (treat) can be hidden. :goodjob:

[CocosMomma]

What I find very amusing about Coco, is that she will quite often go to the area where we train and then try to get my attention! Since that is our training area, I can only think she is telling me - let's get started, I like doing this stuff!:)

Of course, she enjoys the special treat that comes only during that time, but I think she also likes that type of interaction... doing 'tricks', so to speak, and hands-off interaction. She usually has a pretty good attention span, but I also know that if she goes to that area, she is interested in training and will be receptive! She will just sit there and look at me.... until I comply and start the training session!!!
:rofl:

And, what I think is even funnier, is that when we are working together on the clicker training stuff, and she hears the 'click', she will stop immediately, dead in her tracks, whatever she was doing, because she knows a treat comes after that click. She is doing an action, but all the while, I think she has one ear listening for that click! Pavlov at it's best!

[Kirby]

Oh god, Kirby knows where the treats are... whether it be in my hand behind my back or in my pocket..

He will run to that arm/pocket even if I try to hide it.. .little bugger..

I just used one of his colourful play gym dowels.. THey have a blue ball on the end which is perfect... So I was just leaving it beside him as he was scared... every time he approached the right end, he got a nibble.. then he started "predicting" where I would move my hand on the treats. -_-

[Shirley]

Well, he only gets a treat WHEN he does the behavior you are asking for. If you treat him any other time during training, you've trained him to do something you aren't asking for...

[gary&chloe]

HA HA HA....Pinning in all of our birds means "YOU HAVE TO THE COUNT OF ONE TO GET THE ^&$^% OUT OF HERE NOW!!!" There is no flying away or even moving away. If the pinning starts, the next action is biting and I mean a serious bite.

Chloe doesn't pin though.