Peanuts

[SadennaAndFlock]

Whats the truth with them are even dry roasted human grade bad as raw the words Aflotoxins keeps coming up associated with peanuts...now I have always thought dry roasted humane grade were fine but now I am starting to wonder..good? bad? whats the deal with peanuts should they or shouldn't they be fed??

[Jean]

I can give your question a yes and a no. There is good food value in peanuts.

I've added information and food value statistics from studies. article explains the dangers of fungi, Aspergillus as well. As far as I am aware is the danger part and how to avoid not purchasing and storing fungi peanuts.

http://www.parrothouse.com/peanuts.html

Several links from USA search.gov.

http://usasearch.gov/search?input-form=simple-firstgov&v%3Asources=firstgov-search-select&v%3Aproject=firstgov&query=safety+of+peanuts&x=26&y=11

[SadennaAndFlock]

thanks jean...that topic seems to come up on a couple of the bird boards I am on..and it got me wondering as I do feed peanuts unsalted dry roasted human grade already packaged from the grocery store...but you would think the same caution would towards other nuts to some people don't feed shelled nuts because you can get some bad ones...and not know it until it gets opened..

[Shirley]

At AAV this past August all the nuts mentioned were everything BUT peanuts - peanuts being very high in fat.

Ours have been given Planter's unsalted peanuts from the jar as treats for years, but changing Steve is a hard thing to do.

Almonds were mentioned as a favorite occasional nut to offer. And others were mentioned as well. Peanuts were never in the list of "good" nuts. They don't come from a tree, after all, they come from under the ground... and have high fat...

[SadennaAndFlock]

we always have almonds on hand I buy the big bag of shelled almonds from sams club the kind used for baking..they are definantly a fave around here along with Pine nuts and walnuts and hazel nuts...at least unshelled I Can see how they look...not to mention snagging a few to nibble on myself when I feeding in the bird room ...lol

[Ellen K. Cook, DVM]

Peanuts grow in the ground and are ALWAYS contaminated with fungus. Proper harvesting, cleaning and drying techniques decrease, but do NOT eliminate the percentage of fungus (often Aspergillus spp.) and aflatoxins produced by the fungus. Whether that level of aflatoxins will cause disease depends on the species (African greys are more susceptible) and the individual's own immune status at the time of exposure. Plus, peanuts are too high in fat for our parrots. The excerpt in red is from this Medline link:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002429.htm

Although aflatoxins are known to cause cancer in animals, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) allows them at low levels in nuts, seeds, and legumes because they are considered "unavoidable contaminants."
The FDA believes occasionally eating small amounts of aflatoxin poses little risk over a lifetime. It is not practical to attempt to remove aflatoxin from food products in order to make them safer.
Food Sources
The mold that produces aflatoxin may be found in the following foods:

Peanuts and peanut butter
Tree nuts such as pecans
Corn
Wheat
Oil seeds such as cottonseedThis refers to safety for humans, NOT birds. I do NOT recommend feeding peanuts (same is true for Brazil nuts) to my patients, nor do I feed them to my birds. However, almonds, walnuts, pecans are all good treats fed in moderation, unless you have breeding or free-flighted birds (who need a higher fat diet). 1-2 nuts per week for most species. Macaws do require a higher fat diet, so I recommend 1 nut per day for the large macaws and every other day for the minis.

[SadennaAndFlock]

well then I guess I can just keep those peanuts to myself lol...the food debate is a hard issue so many different opinons and ideas out there makes ones head spin..lol

[Shirley]

But science and facts are just that... and no worries there... just listen to the facts and stop fretting.

[SadennaAndFlock]

nope no fretting here..just curious I think the hard part is aviculture is constantly changing it's hard to keep up whats ok now may not be a year from now things change so much..

[Shirley]

I knew peanuts were not good years ago... fungus, mold, aflatoxins - a toxin created by the fungus ... an avian vet tech told me years before I met Dr. C... and she's told me more than a few times over the years... there are nuts that are safe and nuts that aren't... and peanuts are not. I should be putting slivered almonds in the peanut jar... and the birds will eventually accept them. They all know how to open the Planter's Peanut jar.

[SadennaAndFlock]

it's like when I am watching the news one week they tell this food is good for ya helps prevent cancer and they always use that scientests say then a year or so well maybe it's not as good as they thought it was...aviculture seems the same way to me somedays..

[Jean]

it's like when I am watching the news one week they tell this food is good for ya helps prevent cancer and they always use that scientests say then a year or so well maybe it's not as good as they thought it was...aviculture seems the same way to me somedays..

It makes you wonder what idiot is in charge of of all the data and testing. :rolleyes:

It's good this week and next year it's life threatning. Or one doctor will switch your medication and a year later you go to another one and they switch it saying it's bad for your heart. That actually happened to Al. who had a bad heart. :rolleyes:

[SadennaAndFlock]

exactly.... information changes alot I have noticed with bird care some thing have not but there is alot that has in the past few years...

hard to keep up with some of it sometimes...so much information on bird care in general so many different opinions it's amazing....and alot of information I have read can be so contradicting I know when hubby and I were first looking to go from a cockatiel to something bigger we looked at pionus, quakes and conures and all the different versions of information was amazing..even down to diet..

[Shirley]

One should see what goes on year to year at school inservices for teachers... you'd wonder how kids ever learn anything..... with what "they" consider to be the latest and greatest new ways to impart knowledge to kids...

but with meds... I think it's just a tad more scientific...

and with nutrition... well... the learning curve is there, and with the formulated pelleted diet, the birds ARE getting more the balance they REQUIRE, and the birds DO USUALLY PREFER the "candy" -- seeds -- so that is why it's best to offer pellest first and seeds less.

What I listened to at AAV re nutrition was eye-opening, and I heard it all week long from a variety of speakers from various parts of the globe.

[SadennaAndFlock]

So when told to feed pellets does that mean pellets only and nothing else or pellets along with a variety of other foods..some people take feeding pellets as to just feed their birds pellets and nothing else.


Reading the back fo some of the pellets packages yes the vitamins are there, but I always wondered how much of that the bird is getting since pellets tend to break and crumble when they are eating....are they getting the right amount, over the amount, less than etc. I noticed when we just had 2 cockatiels and the conures even with feeding pellets and other fresh foods their feathers started to look dull with baths and all, were not as nice and shiny but our avian vet said the diet was fine and the birds were tested and nothing unusual showed..then some years later I started working where I am now and the gal I work for feeds her birds both seed and pellets and her birds feathers are simply gorgeous and her birds are healthy to so I took some seed home and shared it with all my birds and offered both I noticed a big difference in their feathers looked much better and they had all been vetted and all were healthy their blood work showed up great and still does 4 1/2 years later...and they eat both their pellets and their seed but again thats just my experiance with my birds ..so for me I think seed has a place in the diet I know sunflower seeds are full of oil and not the best I don't feed sunflower, but some seeds from what I have read do have certain nutrional value but I could be wrong...personally for me I don't think either just seed nor just pellets should be a main staple I got better results offereing both at the same time but again thats just my experiance with my birds

After doing so much reading on my own and talking to our vet when it came to diet was frazzled I pretty much just said forget it and started to give them a little bit of everything and our vet said hey if it is working and your birds are healthy stick with it but again thats my own experiance with my birds..

I also wonder if it's also the ratio of what you feed and how much you feed, I mean is it possible to much of a good thing be bad in a way?? ...I don't know..not trying to argue so please don't take this as such or contradicting

[SadennaAndFlock]

Ok I think I got it..pellets are now considered more superior diet than seeds..yes? but isn't the reason seeds are bad is because many people don't know that they should not be the only food fed and some do feed seed mix that consists of the fattier more unhealthy seeds, wouldn't pelleted diet only be just as bad as seeds only? hence the reason variety and moderation is the key to a good diet which would include some of each food group thats healthy for birds..I mean from what I know and again this is my own research via information articles by avian vets and people who have worked with birds in their countries of origin..in the wild don't they eat seeds, vegetation? science and facts tell me there are no pellet trees in the wild..so out of curiosity how does something man made be better than something more natural? I by no means think seeds are superior to pelletsand vice versa..I would think there has to be a happy medium some where for both to fit in the diet and yet be considered good.

are there seeds that are have more nutritional value and less fats and oils than others that are beneficial??

[Shirley]

We simply cannot duplicate what our birds find in the wild, from their native lands. That is one reason why pelleted diets are superior to our concoctions of seeds, etc. Even horses and chickens are fed pelleted diets.

Yes they can get too much concentration of certain vits/mins... thus the pelleted diets are superior, again. Formulated for the birds. Balanced.

Pellets left in hot garages, however ... the good fats go rancid and we don't realize it. so ... keep them cool, not in the heat.

We keep ours in the cold basement. Or in the garage refrigerator. I keep baby bird powdered formula in the freezer.

I would have to photocopy volumes of scientific information -- I can't regurgitate it all for the forum... and BirdTalk doesn't get that scientific in its articles... but http://lafeber.com/default.aspx does a LOT of research, and had a large presence (speakers, etc) at the AAV conference.
Study this from Roudybush: QandA (http://roudybush.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.faqResults&group_id=2)
And this from Harrisons (http://www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/)

There's a lot of science on their sites... not just marketing.
They aren't "just in it for the money"... the birds are thriving and doing better and that by itself speaks well for the products..

Feather color is not necessarily a result of foods eaten... parrot feather color is a different chemistry from the feather color of the Roseate Spoonbill or the Flamingo or the Canary, for example, where their feathers can exhibit the colors of some of the reds/oranges of the foods they eat. This is discussed in depth somewhere on the board...

[SadennaAndFlock]

All I know is my bird pass their vet tests with flying colors internally and externally on a diet that includes seeds, pellets, fresh veggies, some fruit, grains, and other good foods that they will eat..

diet is something that can never be agreed upon no matter how much science and facts are put into...but science and facts change so who knows 5-10 years from now pellet mayb considered insuffcient nutrition and someone may come up with something better..what I don't know but would not surprise me...

I think pellets vs seed will always be an on going battle in the avian world it's one of those just to agree to disagree no one is right or wrong as long as the bird is healthy.

[Ellen K. Cook, DVM]

The problem with feeding seeds to parrots are mainly twofold:

1. Most people feed ONLY seeds (just like you said, Sadenna)

2. Many birds, when offered seeds and pellets, will selectively eat ONLY seeds. Some parrots, like parakeets, budiges, 'tiels, need a small amount of seed in their diets. I tell clients to feed pellets only and use seed for treats when teaching. That way the bird gets a mostly pelleted diet, which is formulated, to the best of our current knowledge, for all the bird's needs.

Most pet birds' lifespans are very short, primarily due to malnutrition from all-seed diets.

Here is my recommendation of a daily ration for parrots:

75% pellets (Harrison's, Roudybush, ZuPreem are my favorites)
10 % veggies
5% fruits
5% "healthy" people foods (rice, pasta, cereal, etc.)
5% seeds/nuts

[SadennaAndFlock]

I guess I got lucky as my birds eat both equally well they don't favor one more over the other..and they don't pick out certain seeds they eat some of all different kinds as I always look in the dish before dumping and refilling with fresh...I did find however they waste alot of each if I fill the bowls to full so I have had to slowly over time figure out how much to give each of my birds, some eat more than others, and others fling more than others. yep all seeds and nothing is never good..heck it's not even good for us to eat on thing only and nothing else, plus it would get very boring..I tried harrisons with my birds none of the would touch it..but chow down on their zupreem that I will mix some roudy bush in with...Sunflower seeds seem to be the weakness for alot of birds and I know sunflower is very high in oils that many don't need, and I think safflower runs a close 2nd but there are a few different kinds of sunflower seed that all very in the amount of oil in them some have more or less than others...my see mix has safflower but I noticed my birds don't seem to favor the safflower over everything else I notice some of each kind of seed get eaten..I really wonder if birds know what they need and don't need if they eat more of a certain kind one day and more of a certain kind on another day...

[Jim]

A lot of good brian 'food' here (pune indented). Science is, imo, the best we can get and yes it always will change. That's why it's the best we can follow. It's always correcting it's self -- looking for and finding better ways and answers.

As for the 'in the wild' stuff we all read and say at times. We try our best to learn what they eat. We *reproduce* a food source (best we can) that nature and evolution has created and has in turn allowed them to survive for all these years.

This is not personal to anyone reading, we all have probably said as much in different words. I know I have. "Never seen a pellet tree in the wild" is one that always makes me go... GRRRR!!! I've never seen "in the wild" a clipped bird, a barber shop or scissors, a cage store, hanging colored wood toys, parrots looking to humans for a meal or head rubs, and many many more things we see in captivity. If, not you in particular Sadenna, people are going to use this logic, it should be used across the board and not for what suites a belief on a subject.

My thoughts on diet. What vets recommend, as Dr C does for her clients, I agree with. Now, I also agee with Sadenna's thoughts on diet. Confused? Let me try to explain.

Not everyone has the same ability and commitment to diet, behavior and husbandry. I see dangers in promoting a varied diet, the same as promoting flighted birds -- if done WITHOUT detailed instructions. How many (I don't know) are going to throw all sorts of food in the bowl, bird eats what he wants and the care giver believes they are doing good.

Sadenna, you are like me, I feed a varied diet BUT I know what they eat and don't eat. I can adjust accordingly and feel safe with what I do. How many people are going to do that day-in-and-day-out? Some? A few? All of them? Then we factor in -- we aren't there "seeing" the bird and how they're fed. Plus, the written word isn't the greatest medium for instruction and feed back on such a life and death issue.

So... if I promote a varied diet it needs to be FULLY explained. The risks, the commitment needed, all the detail I can give and MORE! I see diet like I see flighted birds. Good for the bird IF the person is committed to it. If I'm going to promote it I need to accept responsibly for what I promote and explain ALL the good, the bad and detail I can.

[SadennaAndFlock]

well and I forget alot of the time that not everyone will do research like I do in what would be best for their birds and how to go about working foods into the diet etc. and that I admit I do and do it without even thinking about it one of my many faults and when I mean many I mean it..lol what I think and how words come out in a post always wind up being opposite...and it's always been that way for me..something sounds really good in my head but when I start typing it never comes out that way.

All in all the best way to learn about diet is talk to your birds vet they know your bird or birds and which way is the best way to go...some believe in pellets as "The one and only food" there is for your bird and some still believe that a little seed along with everything else ..and feel if it's not broke don't fix it so to speak..

[Shirley]

One thing I forgot to mention... that along WITH all the talk on nutrition and behavior at AAV was the talk on EXERCISE and getting the birds MOVING, whether clipped or not... and I mean really MOVING... good healthy aerobic exercise, not just climbing around on a new toy or rope. Burn up all those calories we so proudly poor into them...

[Jim]

One thing I forgot to mention... that along WITH all the talk on nutrition and behavior at AAV was the talk on EXERCISE and getting the birds MOVING, whether clipped or not... and I mean really MOVING... good healthy aerobic exercise, not just climbing around on a new toy or rope. Burn up all those calories we so proudly poor into them...:thumbup: :beerchug: :thumbup:
If I had to take a stand.... I MAY stand in the camp of exercise is as important as diet.

I couldn't agree with this more as one of the main goals to a healthy bird.
...EXERCISE and getting the birds MOVING, whether clipped or not... and I mean really MOVING... good healthy aerobic exercise, not just climbing around on a new toy or rope. Burn up all those calories we so proudly poor into them...

[CocosMomma]

How many (I don't know) are going to throw all sorts of food in the bowl, bird eats what he wants and the care giver believes they are doing good.

EXCUSE THE BOOK....

I know that if someone throws chips and broccoli on my plate - I'm eating the chips first. I may or may not eat the broccoli. If it is brussel sprouts, I can GUARANTEE you they will get thrown onto the floor.:woot:

I'm hesitant to add anything to this post - but yet - here I am typing!:nuts:

Lots of good ideas, points and perspectives. I'm introspecting on what I've done with my birds in the past, what I'm doing now, and how things have changed over the past 30 years. Lots has changed. Plus, we all know that certain species or individuals have unique needs.

Thanks be to God, Coco has not yet ever been sick one day in 11 1/2 years. Sammy, at 26 1/2, was sick one time many years ago with a sinus infection. Their health is strictly a wonderful blessing, and not because I'm such a fabulous caretaker or so wise about birdie nutrition.

There have been certain times of my life that required 'flexibility'. We all go through these times of extra stress or upheaval. In some of those time, I have served a 100% pellet diet. I did not hesitate then, and I would not hesitate to do it again. My birds did not suffer ill-health effects, although they were probably pretty darned bored with it!:funny: For me, if choosing, I'd rather serve 100% pellets vs 100% seeds.

Currently, if I had to guess on percentages, I would say my birdies receive about 85% of their daily food as the Harrison's pellets. Sammy gets hi-potency, because of his elderly age, Petey gets hi-potency because of his young age, and Coco eats equal parts of pepper formula, life-time maintenance formula and power treats. Coco does like the taste of Zupreem, but refused to eat Roudy Bush. I've found that if I give Coco too much Harrisons in her dish at one time, she wastes it. A few pellets, and she eats carefully, completely and does not drop or waste.

In the evenings they get: Dehydrated: pastas in fun shapes, carrot, papaya, mango, banana, peas, lentils, corn, kidney beans, navy beans, etc. Each evening I rehydrate, let cool a bit, and serve warm. Fresh: broccoli, carrot, yellow squash, zucchini, banana, apple and grapes. I rotate the fruits and veg based upon what looks good, is in season, on sale, etc. Walnuts and almonds sparingly.

I inspect what they leave in their dishes. Coco can be sensitive about presentation - ex.: she wants her grapes cut up, not whole. Also, whatever she leaves she will often eat if I hand-feed it to her.

After this, they are pretty full and winding down for the evening. At that point, Sammy gets a small portion of high-quality seed mix and Coco gets 6-8 small black sunflower seeds. The amount of seed Sammy gets is also somewhat determined by how much of his pellets he ate during the day. If he finished/nearly finished his pellets, great. If he didn't eat much, I'm not going to give him as much seed, or sometimes any seed, instead letting him continue eating the pellets.

This time of their eating when I first get home also gives me a chance to change my clothes and get ready for my dinner, while they are fully occupied with chowing down and not screaming for my attention. By the time they are done eating, I am in a position to give them my full attention.

Finally, throughout the week they get 'tastes' of food that I eat: rice, beans, yogurt, oatmeal, pasta, occasionally a snippet of cheese, cheerios, wheat chex, etc. They love to eat off my plate!:D

Well, that's my life-story and my :cents: !!!

[Jim]

well and I forget alot of the time that not everyone will do research like I do in what would be best for their birds and how to go about working foods into the diet etc. and that I admit I do and do it without even thinking about it one of my many faults and when I mean many I mean it..lol what I think and how words come out in a post always wind up being opposite...and it's always been that way for me..something sounds really good in my head but when I start typing it never comes out that way...I think you know a lot about what you post from the research you do, Sadenna. And I believe you are a great care giver. We've had our times of disagreement and even heated discussions. Most of the time, on this end, when I've gotten heated it's most often because I can't express what's in my head clearly. At least I don't think it's clear. I understand what you're saying, believe me.

One thing about our discussions, and I hope it's true for you. I learn and have insight or better understanding the next time the topic pops up.