Bedtime Behaviors

[SummerJ]

I have a new challange - Sydney is just too smart sometimes and just about has me outwitted on this one. :rotflmao: In the last couple of months, I have been taking his cage into the office so I can get him to sleep earlier. (I have tried taking the cage in at different times so that is not a warning to him that it is getting near that time). I cover his cage before I leave the room. Covering his cage is not new to him, in the winter especially I cover his cage. He has never liked going to bed, so I give him a peanut reward for getting in his cage. Peanuts are his absolute favorite training treats. He will get on his cage door then move to his perch inside the cage. This has been our routine for along time. We have gone through times when he will do anything to keep from getting in the cage (this is not a new behavior from going to sleep in the office, it just has become a bigger problem). But usually the peanut is his undoing. Sometimes I have taken him to another room to get him to step up, and then I can put him right into the cage. Well, he is now on to all of my tricks. He knows I have the peanut, but won't take it if I means getting in the cage. If I ask him to step up, he just puts his head down for scritches. When he is on top of the cage he runs, yells, and dances from one side to the other. The little monster will even get on his door like he is going to get in his cage, then runs back to the top of the cage. :rotflmao: ( I have to admit it is pretty funny if I am not too tired, but I don't let him know that.) If I try to take him to go to another room, he will jump on my arm or shoulder to get there, and then nips at me or puts his head down for scritches when I try to get him to step up. Absolutely no touching the feet at that time - that means he has been caught and has to go to bed!! I have tried telling him it it "night-night" time or just trying to get him to step up in the living room and taking him to the cage, but he is wise to me and won't step up if he thinks it is that time.
Desired behavior: Get in his cage to go to sleep.
Antecedent: Knows it is "night-night" time whether told or not. We have our shower, then within a half hour to hour he is to go to bed. I know the shower is somewhat a predictor to him because he seems to be alert for bedtime approaching afterwards.
Reinforcements: Sydney gets my undivided attention, although it may just be telling him to get in his cage over and over. There have to be more because he just seem quite overjoyed to outwit me!!:funny:
Any suggestions - I am running out of ideas!!:nuts:
Janet

[CocosMomma]

Is Sydney really Coco?:rofl: This sounds all toooo familiar.... (SORRY THIS IS SO LONG!)

I'm no ABA expert, but let me throw some things in the old 'hopper'....:rotflmao:

The desire to NOT go to bed may be stronger than for a treat.
The trick? Finding what desire IS stronger than the thought of bed time.

Presently, with Coco, that is the privilege of visiting everyone, sitting on top of their cage, and personally saying good night. It is so reinforcing, she doesn't care that it results in bed time.

Routine: I partially cover Sammy, "Sammy is going night night now... Sammy is a good boy. Do you want to visit Sammy?" Partially cover Petey, say the same thing. Then I approach her - "Here we go - let's go visit!" When we visit each bird, it is not a two second visit either. She gets to sit for a minute... maybe 2 minutes each bird, so the entire night time routine does not exceed 5 minutes. She still lovvvvveess it.:D

With Sydney's peanuts, I'm sure there are other times throughout the day when one is given? If you NEVER gave a peanut except at bedtime, would that treat be sufficiently enticing to overcome the knowledge of the impending bedtime?

Is she asking for scritches to simply avoid stepping up and the inevitable trip to bed? Can scritches be given upon the return to the cage as a reward? What if ending up in the cage does not always and only happen at bedtime? And ending up in the cage means lots and lots of scritches, and a peanut, and/or whatever else really motivates Sydney? And maybe the shower in the morning or mid-day to avoid that as a trigger?

Throughout the day - into cage, get scritches, get peanut, come out. Hang for awhile. Repeat, etc.

Finally, in the 'trick training', I also have a command - "get in your cage" which she then is reinforced by her favorite treat for that trick. This is a longer route to a possible answer, and will not help you with tonight's bed time! She might be way too smart for it anyway, and learn the trick but still not go to bed! The real trick is - what so motivates her that she can't help herself and falls for it everytime!!!

Don't know if any of this will help - more or less throwing out ideas - but it is fun stuff to talk about, isn't it???:thumbup:

[Kirby]

hahahah oh boy! Do I ever hear you with the night time refusals :lol:
Fortunately mine go into their cage without a hassle, but boy do they create a racket. It is just hilarious to watch and they know it, hense why they keep doing it.

One idea you could do with Sydney would be to have every day a different bed time. Say tonight, if his USUAL bed time is 9pm, put him in his cage at 8:00 but still interact with him and cover him up at 9. Then the next night, say 8:30 into the cage and cover at 8:45. I wouldn't tell him it's "night-night" time ;) he'll pick up on it.

I think the key to breaking his smart-alec ways is to improve your sneaky ways ;)
I would also break the routine he has picked up on too. Meaning your showers and then 1/2 hour to go till bed time :p

OR for desperate measures... keep him out wayyyy past bedtime and let him fall asleep. Then gently wake him up after he's sleeping, scoop him up and put him in his cage :)
(That method worked for Kirby when he wanted to stay out ALLLLLLLLLLLL the time.. then again his beak is fairly small too, so any startled nibbles didn't phase me hehe)

[Jean]

All of us have an ultimate goal. The suggestion of good night, bedtime, should be a special comforting idea. It's often easier with cockatoos because most love cuddle time before retiring. Maybe, he has had some bad bedtime experiences in his past. That could be a good reason and habit for avoiding bedtime.

Here is what I do. I realize not everyone has, or wants, to spend the time I devote to Elvie before bedtime.

Elvie gets a light spray shower, cuddle, drying time in his towel. I rock him, talk softly or sing to him or listen to soft music in the background. Having a sleeping cage is also a plus. They know that is where they sleep. I never have problems putting Elvie to bed. If he is not sleepy he has a few toys in there to play with. He always goes to sleep cuddling one in his hand. Once he's sound asleep I can hear it slip away. Sometimes he will go get it and cuddle it again other times he will let it go. Elvie usually plays so much he looks forward to bedtime.

With other birds it's not always so simple. I've put them to sleep by giving them some subtle attention to give them time to wind down and relax as much as possible. Most fids get accustomed to their bedtime routine.

[Jim]

Hey Jannet. Sounds like Syd's getting confident and wanting to call the shots. My kinda' of bird!:agree: I've got some things in my head that may help... but.... the boys are watching me right now and we don't want them learning any secerts we use.:)

Let me roll this around in my old brain and I'll try to make a few suggestions.

[Kirby]

Awe Jean,

But you keep forgetting, we all don't have a superbird like Elvie ;)

[Jim]

OK Jannet. You want the straight shot of my thoughts on this? If so keep reading. If not... well... no harm-no foul to just stop reading.

Generalized (anywhere any time) stepping on and off our hand is, imo, the best behavior we can have for any sort of peace with our companions. It takes practice, time and a LOT of repetitions in as many place as we can. Generalized step up and off would be where I'd start. Sounds silly or like a small thing but I've found it has saved me lots of problems. Whether it be asking them to go in the cage, step off my shoulder, stop a fuss, stop a bite (if I see it coming), etc.

Does Syd need to go night night because he's tired or is it that you want him to? I mean, are you thinking about the amount of sleep? Is it time for you and hubby to chill and want him in his cage? A solid step up, step off, will solve the chill time thing. As for the amount of quiet straight through sleeping... well... it's great if we can provide it. Not everyone's life style is going to fit that criteria. I know birds that do fine where sleep is spilt up between day and night.

Before I get called on that.:) I'm talking adult birds that are capable of decision making that works for them *in captivity*. Sure, wild birds are active most of the day finding resources or protecting their self. They aren't going to sleep in comfort during the day. Captive birds can sleep in peace druning the day.

I like that you used the ABC's Jannet. You're right, you're reinforcing Syd for not going in the cage. See what you think of these ABC's and I like to add the PFB (probable future behavior) also. He may know night night is coming from the shower but lets look at what's happening in smaller steps.;)

For the record :) A=antecedent B=behavior C=consequence

Behavior now: This is what we observe and is about Syd
A - approaching the cage
B - steps on cage
C - Gets attention
PFB - step on cage for attention

What you'd like to happen:
A - approach cage
B - steps in cage
C - Gets attention (reward)
PFB - steps in cage for attention (reward)

Does that help see what is happening and what may need to happen to get the behavior you want? I'm not a good teacher, not that I'm trying to be! Please ask and maybe Shirley or Dr C can explain it in words that would be better suited. I'm more than willing to explain anything that isn't clear, not saying that.:)

I'd focus on step up and off my hand and in and out of cage. I'd also look at whether Syd needs sleep or I want him to sleep.

[tootiehead]

I have found a wonderful way to get my birds to bed. Dr. C told me to only put the seeds in at night. So, I tell them it's seed time, and they go right in. Lily loves to go to bed. She will holler at me if I forget to cover them early enough for her. Thor couldn't care less what I do. Nummies isn't impressed with seed time, mom time is more important to her, but she's very well behaved and does what I tell her to do. Star...she lives for seed time. When I first got her, she had never been out of the cage. Now she never wants to go back in. She was also only eating seeds when I got her. So, seed time works every time. (At least for now.) It's a special treat they only get at bedtime.

[CocosMomma]

Awe Jean,

But you keep forgetting, we all don't have a superbird like Elvie ;)

Well, I was gonna comment on this, but Kirby beat me to the punch.;) I AGAIN repeat myself::::: ELVIE FOR PRESIDENT!

If ya'all don't want to go that route - how 'bout if Elvie gives an on-line seminar? We can line our birdies up in front of the monitor and serve virtual popcorn.

Money, ya say??? Well, I think we could, as a group, scrape together a few peanuts, a new toy - some other incentives for Elvie...:rofl:

[SummerJ]

Thank you all for the good suggestions! :agree: Robin, I do like your idea of teaching him to go in his cage as part of his training. That may be one solution. By virtue of the fact that I am so disorganized, his bedtime does get moved around from night to night so he just seems to have a sense when it is time to go to bed and trys to get out of it! When I have to leave for work in the morning, he will get in his cage with no problems. I do try to spend some cuddle time with him in the evening, but that does not seem to make him tired. He is scared of towels, so I can't wrap him up and hold him. Plus he is high energy all of the time!! Jean, I honestly mean it when I say you are so fortunate to have Elvie (and vice versa!). You have really done a great job raising him. Elvie & Sydney need to have a talk about good Cockatoo behavior!! :funny:
Jim, Dr. C suggested I try to get Sydney to bed earlier hoping that it will help with his feather destructive behavior. I think he would stay up all night if I was up too. It is nothing for him to be going strong at midnight if he is still out. I do think I see some better behavior in him when he has had more sleep though. It is nice to have some time away from him too. (My husband definately appreciates it!). Sydney thinks he needs to be attached to me literally in everything I do. He has such poor playing skills that he can't entertain himself for any length of time. I wonder if the people who had him first (and were the ones who were abusive to him) ever played with him or gave him toys to play with? :shrug2: It sure does not seem like it. His idea of fun is to put toys, food, etc. on his back and nip at his feathers until the item falls off. We are working on some new games, but the ones that interest him involves my being actively involved. So, I do need some time to do other things. Now after all of my being long winded... I do agree, the step up skill needs to be greatly strengthened. Now, he steps up good when he knows that I have treats for him (well all except at bedtime), but very sporadic other times. I just need to have the treats available all of the time until he is well trained. I also need to figure out how to break what ever it is that I am doing to reinforce him. By the way Jim, I think you are doing a good job at explaining and teaching!!:agree:
Janet

[Jim]

Here's a link with some good suggestions about toys and getting them to play with them.
Using Toys (http://onafricanwings.com/Usingtoys.htm)

Janet wrote:
I also need to figure out how to break what ever it is that I am doing to reinforce him.

From what you've written it sounds like the whole process of him getting on the cage, you trying to get him in the cage and NOT going to bed would be pretty darn reinforcing to Syd. What do you think? You're there observing all of it. Remember, if the behavior is maintained or increases, it is reinforcement for the bird. I bet this has been going on for a while. I'd guess Syd is getting a payoff (to him) for doing it.

I'd try turning around or walking away for 10-15-20 seconds. Since you seem to be the reinforcement he should 'get it' pretty quick that getting on the cage or not stepping on your hand will loose what he wants. Don't, and I can't say this strong enough since I've seen how attached Syd is to you, let it become punishment 'to Syd'. I mean, and this is so hard to explain in the written word I almost hate to suggest that. With close observation let him see that getting on the cage looses what he is expecting from his previous experience - you giving attention. We're teaching him a NEW way to earn the reward he wants, your attention, and going in the cage will get what he wants. It's not going to work over night but it's a start you could do before bed time as a little training session or game.

I understand what Dr C is getting at with more sleep. I see it in the boys when they don't get enough sleep. They are more on edge or seem to have a short fuse. I have some ideas and a little experience with a bird we housed for a few weeks that was a feather abuser.

Strictly from a behavior view point and some real life experiences I've had. Bad habits in people, like drug abuse or feather picking in birds, can happen when the subject is bored whether they are sleeping right or not. The point being, if Syd picks his feathers while in the cage because he'd rather be out with you, what have we gained with more sleep?

Let me end on a little funny story (to me) I was told and later put into practice. These older guys set me down and told me they'd never heard of an addict that died from lack of sleep but they sure knew plenty that were in prisons, institution, or graves from using drugs. If you wake up in an hour 'cause you can't sleep call one of us, don't get frustrated or bored! You'll go find some drugs and you may end up.... I see this as similar to birds that feather pick from frustration or boredom.

If you want I'll share what I did with the Grey we housed. It was A LOT of work and a comment that was overwhelming. I wish I could have continued to work with him, we were making progress BUT it wasn't my bird and I couldn't take on another bird and feel good about my time with Nino and Teo.

Wow! sorry I got really long winded here.

[CocosMomma]

I see it in the boys when they don't get enough sleep. They are more on edge or seem to have a short fuse.

Jim, I have also found this true of Coco. And while she can, and does, sleep during the day, and while to me, 12 hours of darkness seems like a lot, I have found this suits her particular needs best. Sometimes when she's hormonally challenged, she gets upwards to 14 hours. If she's being particularly moody or ornery, the first place I look is to her sleep needs. (Altho some might say - how can you tell an amazon is moody??? (ha-ha!!!)

Anything less than 10 hours and I will start to see short-fuse'ed-ness. She does not want to interact, becomes quiet, ornery... TIRED! Just like me when I don't get my sleep! I don't want conversations or demands - I want to be left alone with my chocolate!

That having been said, although I am not presently having bedtime issues, I have in the past - no doubt most if not all of us have had some scheduling challenges with our fids... and therefore I have found this a helpful thread. Lots of great ideas, suggestions, trouble-shooting and knowledge for future reference. We all admit that with our fids, any success can often be spoken of in present tense... presently, she goes to bed well... presently, she eats and plays well...!:rofl:

Janet, thanks for being willing to bring this up, to let us all co-analyze the situation with you and throw in our :cents: :clap: .

[Kirby]

I actually thought of a super interactive toy that my Uncle has for his U2.

He went into a toy store and bought a toy which has bright colourful buttons on it, that when pressed make different noises and sound effects. It was for toddlers or babies who are beginning to become more playfully independant so it has all the noises and sounds, IMO to keep a Too entertained for hours if they like a challenge.
My uncle's too just LOVES it... he has all the baby toys he can think of and usually if his kids are missing theirs the bird has it :p