Teaching to fly

[Mika]

Hi, I noticed that many of you have flighted birds so maybe you can give me some advice on getting my tiels to fly. When I got Jackie (male tiel) fourteen years ago everything I read and was told said that to be a good bird owner and keep the bird safe his wings must be cliped. So I always kept my birds cliped except for the budgies which lived in a flight cage. Then when I had Hootie he would pluck after being cliped (did not matter what kind of wing trim he got or who did it, also sometimes other thinngs would cause him to pluck also). That is when I started reading articles by people who felt that cliping was not a good idea, personaly I dont think that its bad but maybe not always necesary. I tried to keep Hootie flighted but he was getting too aggressive and for the safty of my kids and other pets I had to trim his wings. Also I kept the other birds trimed because if they would land on Hooties cage he would go after them. Now that Hootie is gone and I only have one budgie remaining (others have died over the years) I have been leting Chewy (he is 11 years old) fly around the house. He has gotten very good at it and really seems to like it, we also like it. So now I would also like for the two cockatiels to be able to fly but they do not know how. When their wings grow out they never try to fly and only do it when something scares them but them they just flap like crazy till they hit something so its not proper flying. Right now they are cliped but Tiko, who is two years old, is starting to molt and I would like to try to let him grow his feathers out. I think Tiko should learn because he is still young but I dont know about Jackie. I think it would be good exercise for them since they are not very active. If anybody has any sugestions on how to go about teaching them to fly I would apreciate it. Thanks.

Mika

[Molzy7687]

Hi Mika!

I got my tiel, Sweety, when she was somewhere around a year old. I don't believe she had ever fledged, and she had a horrible wing clip. We let her flights grow in, and it took her 9 months of crashing into walls to slowly learn that she can somewhat control where she goes. She can now turn and land, though she isn't perfect.

She's been flighted for almost 2 years now, and the progress has been very slow. When startled, she now sometimes (only sometimes) makes it back to her cage. I will also launch her from my hand (lower my hand to encourage her to fly off), and she will fly back to her cage then (not all birds would enjoy/tolerate this, but it doesn't seem to stress her out, and I am trying to get her to learn that flight is a way to get where she wants to go. It's probably not a practice I would recommend, but I do it anyways).

I will say that, for me, the biggest benefit of having her fully flighted is that she's more confident, and instead of climbing around her cage cautiously, she leaps from perch to perch.

Good luck!

[Sue]

I can't comment on getting birds when older, but Ollie flies to me on command (most of the time:funny: ) sometimes when he's being naughty he flies from one curtain top to the other.

I first did it by calling him holding my hand up while holding a treat in the other hand, he now comes when called and sometimes lands on your plate to steal food.

They are all so different, it's really trial and error but i'm sure you'll get lots of ideas here later.

Good luck!!

[Jim]

Hi there Mika

Molly and Sue have said some good stuff. I have a little experience with flighted birds and will share it and or try to help you with this. I'm a little pressed for time at the moment but hopefully later tonight or soon I can put the needed thought into this. Flying birds aren't to be taken lightly in my book. I'd rather post with my full attention on it, if that's OK with you.

[tootiehead]

My husband insisted on clipping the birds wings. Mostly because of Thor. He just hasn't mastered turning. After the last time he flew into the slider, and the trip to the vet, he got clipped. He still flys, just like he's never been clipped. Nummies loves to fly, so I think I won't clip the next time. I just started saying, "fly bird!" every time she would fly. Then I would hold my hands up, and she would try to fly to me. After a while, she was very good at it. She has her tour of the house, she would expand a little every time. With Thor and Lily, I just hold them until they get close to the cage, and let them fly to it. Lily was also very clumsy. Now I'm going through it with Star. Little Apollo is better at flying than Thor or Star. I think it's a lot of practice. Shirley suggested to me to take him into a safe room to let him fly. I have one bedroom where there is nothing he can fall behind, or uncovered windows for him to get hurt on. He's starting to fly to my hand. I'm sure Jim will give some great advise. I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. Don't know if I helped or confused you.

[Shirley]

I'll offer a short response here... flight is like "flight school"... it takes time and controlled circumstances in the beginning... one post won't answer it all..

OK... Holly, African Grey, clipped after first couple of flights, probably. Got her clipped at 3 mos 3 weeks. So... she was clipped within 3 wks max of flying. Too soon to master flight.

She finally got her flights back within about 12 mos as I recall. Her flying was hesitant and not very good. She'd aim, take off in a straight line, and stop when she hit the floor, or sort of crashed into me, or hit something else.
She was also timid to fly.

We (husband and I) took her in the long narrow hallway, side doors closed, and starting about 3' apart, we'd encourage her to fly from his arm to mine, making sure to hold the arm VERY still -- you DON'T want to move the landing perch while they are on their way calculating a landing. AND NEVER move the landing site further away while they are in flight. That's not fair, and loses trust.

Once she could fly nicely and land nicely that distance, we'd move 4' apart and work that distance until she was really good at landing on my arm, and so on. We never practiced longer than she wanted... so short sessions. And a treat for doing the behavior every now and then.

It wasn't long before she was flying where ever she wanted, crashing into nothing...landing beautifully, and turning nicely as she made choices where to fly. :thumbup:

She never had bad crashes b/c we trained in the hallway... where she couldn't make turns until she learned landings and take-offs.

[Mika]

Thanks for all the advice, it's all helping. I am a little nervous because I do not want anything bad to happen to them but I think that in the long run they would be happier if they could fly. Now, the first thing is how do I get them to actualy start flying? I mean they never atempt to fly unles they get scared and then its a panic thing and not a concious decision to fly. A few times when I knew that they could fly I tried to call them and bribe them with treats but they just look at me like I'm crazy. I think that they really do not understand that flying is something they can do and control. My husband said I should just pick them up and tose them in the air, I do not know if thats a good idea but I can't think of anything ales that will get them moving. I still have lots of time to decide how I will do this since neither bird has his flight feathers right now. I will be waiting for more sugestions since I need all the help I can get. Thanks again.

Mika

[Jim]

Good posts Tootie and Shirley. Shirley has covered it really well.

I'll add a few things that may be worthy and I'd like to say, each bird is going to learn to fly in their on way at their own pace. For me, I try the best I can to be the bird. Since I can't fly and know little about the internals of what goes on inside, I picture myself suddenly being in water. With that said it's best, imo, to make flying fun the same as we would like to be taught swimming is fun.

Their are a few things I'd do once the bird is flying even a very short distance. I'd have him fly to me, lets say off his perch, from different angles and fly up to your arm, down to your arm, all in small steps. This may sound silly or like over kill -but- I like the bird to have all the skill I can teach in this relatively safe place before he ventures off into the wide open sea, Oh, I mean air.:)

Now for the part only you can work on with your bird. Some birds are more comfortable flying at what is a safe distance to them and that may not always be a few inches or feet. I believe it's like us in the water. Some of us may feel safer when we can stretch out and take a stroke or two. Some may like the little short hop into the water and grab the perch. There I go again,:doh: I mean side of the pool. These are a few things I've observed with birds, clipped, previously clipped learning to fly or babies, that are learning this new skill of flying.

As Shirley said. This topic is more than a one or two post endeavor.

[Mika]

Thanks Jim. Will definately have to try all that. I want them to learn all the proper skills so that they are safe and hopefuly I have some control when they fly (get them to fly to me). I know that its hard to say since every bird is different but what are the chances that the 14 year old tiel will learn to fly? I think that the two year old one will have better luck but i am more concerned about Jackie.

Mika

[Shirley]

Well... this is going to be a good thread, I can tell! :school: Thanks Jim!

One thing NOT to do:

Never "throw the bird off your hand or arm"... don't launch them or toss them into the air ... let it be the bird's choice to fly. Make the reward for flying to you attractive enough that they want to fly to get to it.

Consider starting by teaching your bird to target an object. Targeting is the first step in training... to "Target" something is to touch something with the beak, a foot, or some part of the body. It's usually the beak - and yes, I'm quoting Dr. Cook here, but I've been hearing this a lot lately as I've been filming and reviewing the clips of her new DVD, soon to be released ... anyhow... have you seen the online video "Building Trust with Your Bird... One Click at a Time"?
It's only 7 minutes long... and was submitted last year about this time to the Canis Film Festival.

Watch this...
http://canisfilmfestival.com/submissions_09.html

Teach your bird to target something in several short sessions, getting a reward of praise and a tiny food treat each time he touches the target. He'll love playing the game with you, and using the clicker as a marker for doing the desired behavior is one way to do it, verbal praise without the clicker can work, too. TIMING is very important, so take a look at the video if you like.

Once your bird targets, ask him to move across the table (walking) to target the stick. In other words, going from A to B to touch the target, click/praise, get the treat (reward).

After he's moving across a length of space to touch the target, then start with him on a perch, or someone else's arm, and ecourage him to leave the arm or perch, traveling across a short distance of airspace, to your absolutely steady arm. When he does that, Give lavish enthusiastic praise and a treat! Always end on a positive note... and if he only flies once and doesn't do it again, then revert to touching the target from a perch, just reaching and touching it, then click/praise/treat, and end the session on that positive note.

This might take a long while, and it may not. Don't focus on how long it takes. Small incremental steps, a few minutes a day, or a few minutes several times a day, and you'll build trust and fun into your relationship. Flight will come, sooner or later.

The reason I teach flight with another person is because I like to use the hallway and have the bird waist or chest high, not on a short table-top size stand. Of course I could put a tree stand in the hallway and use that. There is flexibility.

That's a start... ;)

[Mika]

Thanks Shirley. I liked the video. I am familiar with clicker training and I have been involved with dog training form many years. When Jackie was young I tought him to do several tricks and most he will still do today although we do not practice them. I will try to work with both Jackie and Tiko on the "touch", even if we never get around to the actual flying it will still be something fun to do with them. It's just a matter of finding the time because Luke is only 20 months old so he takes up most of my time. When I play with Luke or my other son, Matthew (he is almost seven years old), the cockatiels often join us and sit on my shoulder but the training will be trickier to find time for. Thanks again.

Mika

[Shirley]

One thing about training birds... and dogs, too, in my experience... they never forget what they've learned! I can work with Holly on something once or twice, then two weeks later I come back to continue the training, and she hasn't fortotten a thing! Hmmm... that's a good reason right there to be careful of doing anything that makes the learner uncomfortable...

But... your sons are going to grow up faster than you can imagine... spend tons of time with them -- Mine are in their 20's, and I was home when they were young, but now I would give anything to have a few of those days with them back - nothing like spending time with your children!

[Shirley]

Here's an article with photos on Targeting written by Dr. Cook and published here on the forum. She's also had several articles published in Barbara Heidenreich's magazine, Good Bird:

Targeting 101 (http://www.thebirdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4325)

[Jim]

...One thing about training birds... and dogs, too, in my experience... they never forget what they've learned! I can work with Holly on something once or twice, then two weeks later I come back to continue the training, and she hasn't fortotten a thing! Hmmm... that's a good reason right there to be careful of doing anything that makes the learner uncomfortable...So true, especially the last sentence I bolded.

As Skinner said:
We don't remember experiences, we are changed by them.
--B. F. Skinner

[Mika]

I tried getting the tiels to touch the stick (targeting) and Jackie had no trouble with it at all. Once I ofered him seed for tuching the target he would folow it aroung his stand in order to get the treat. But Jackie already knows several tricks and he is a very smart bird. Tiko is going to take longer because other then steping up he does not know any comands and also he is more skitish. He did not do badly and was touching the target most of the time when i put it right in front of him so I think eventualy he will get the hang of it.
As far as the kids, I do enjoy spending time with them and I know that some day I will miss these days (it is amazing how fast time goes by) but right now there are moments when I thimk they will drive me insane.
I will look at Targeting 101 when I get a chance (probably once the kids have gone to bed). I would like to teach the birds some new stuff (sometimes its hard to get motivated since there is always work to be done). Like I said Jackie is very smart and learns things very fast. I do not know why so many people think that cockatiels are not very inteligent.

Mika

[Shirley]

:goodjob: Don't worry about how long or shot it (the training/learning) takes ... and it doesn't require intelligence... all animals have behavior, and we all are motivated by something, whether it be food, praise, a paycheck, whatever. Keep your training short... and move in small increments... and have him reach a little for the target, don't push it up to his beak. Nothing aversive (nothing he doesn't want to do on his own.) He'll reach for it when he's ready to do that behavior. Then he'll follow it once he learns the pay-off for touching it is something he wants more of. :thumbup:

[Jim]

Hey - you guys are doing so good I hate to jump in but I have to for a second.:D

About the training *sessions* and time. Every interaction we have with our bird(s) is a learning opportunity for us and the bird. One or both of my boys being on me (without misbehaving) while I do dishes was learned while we interacted. It wasn't a set training session.;)

[Shirley]

Right... they are ALWAYS learning... and behavior is always taking place. And that's yet another reason to be very aware of what we say and how we react to their behavior, or them to ours.

Jim... you have to jump in here... :agree: :D