Adventures at the park

[Jim]

Hi all

I haven't posted much about the boys lately but Tues evening was eventful. We go to the park almost everyday and Tuesday was no different. I always park in a back lot were there are less people so if they want to fly a little, from the truck to me and back, they can with little distraction. Most of our time is spent walking the path/trail.

The park closes at dark which is around 9:00pm in the summer. We were at the truck around 8:15pm doing some flying and a few people are watching as they are getting in their cars to leave. This is the normal routine and I watch for people or scary stuff and don't call them or push them to fly if the situation is uncomfortable for them.

I'm 30' from the tail gate, the retractable is 30', and they're having fun flying back and forth. Teo doesn't always stay until I call, Nino is better at it. I had called Nino, he came and as he was landing on my hand Teo takes off to come to me. Just as he was about 4-5 feet from me a child dropped their bike, which spooked Teo, so he flies past me. No biggy, things like this have happened before and he goes back to the truck. Well.... Murphy's law I guess, another person came around the corner by the truck so Teo wasn't going there either.

He takes off full force, tail straight, (they don't flare their tail when going for maximum speed) and I knew then this could be a problem.:eek: The good part is about 6 months ago Sharon was taking his harness off and didn't realize he was chewing the metal crimp that holds the elastic to the lead webbing. Not her fault, it could happen to anyone, so I squeezed it back together. I say good thing because it came loose which in my mind was better than what could have happened when he came to the end of the lead at that speed.

You guessed it.... there he goes to the tallest pine tree in the area. It was a good 60'+ and he's in the very top. Of course to add to it people are running, gasping and looking up which was more concern to me than Teo in the tree. Didn't want him spooked and fly to another tree the get away from them.

I ask them to please back up or go about their business and told them we'd be fine, he'll come to me if you give him his space. I got about 100'-150' from the tree, called him and like a trooper he came right to me.:emot-danc

The thing is, I have been doing a lot of thinking lately about all this training stuff I harp on. I got my answer Tues. It's been WELL worth it, if only for me personally, or even for this incident.

BTW - this isn't the first time one of them has been in a tree, free.

[Junkzoo]

WOW!!!!!!!!:doh:
That was something Jim!
You are correct, the training you and the boys put in paid off.:goodjob:
And it does sound like it was a good thing the clasp opened up and allowed him to break from the harness,like you said. it could have been worse if it didn't:eek: .

Sure glad he remembered all the stuff you taught him, otherwise he would prob still be up there, trimming the branches, and having them fall on people (Shirley's get -together inside joke, you had to be there LOL)

[Shirley]

Wow! This just brought tears to my eyes... the beauty, the huge fear in our hearts when they fly off, taking control of those who come to "look or help", the whole scenario... You are a master, Jim! Congratulations and I'm SO THANKFUL he flew right back to you! :tighthug: :)

[SummerJ]

Wow, I'm sure your heart was pounding... mine would have been!! I am glad you have been working with them on the free flight, it really paid off. Thank goodness Nino didn't decide to follow his brother. Did he do any "trimming of the branches" while he was up there? He did really seem to like doing that at Shirleys!!
Janet

[Flock Mom]

Through your post you maintained a very calm confident tone which I am sure you held throughout your experience at the park ;)

You are a wonderful parront Jim and I have to agree with Shirley (I think it was Shirley)...you truly are the "Bird Whisperer" :D

[Sue]

OMG Jim, I bet you were terrified:eek:

I'm so glad he flew back to you, the others are right all your training paid off I bet he got a cuddle when he came down:tighthug:

[Jim]

Jeff, I had been really giving the 30' retractable attached the to lead a lot of thought. Just not enough elastic to slow down a fast flight before coming to the end. What I've noticed in the past is, this is hard to explain, if they are flying at a side angle away from me, so to speak, the elastic is pulling for a longer time and a turn is in effect. Straight away is like coming to a dead stop once the elastic is fully stretched.:eek:

Tues was a straight full force flight away from the retractable. If it hadn't come loose I'm pretty sure there could have been some body damage. Not to mention what the experience may have caused as far as flying or putting on the harness.

[Jim]

Thanks for the nice replies all.

Yep, he was chewing the branches and seemed to be having a good time. I wasn't really excited or having a heart pounding moment. I knew he *could* fly down and back to me (he has the skills), so my mind went to timing the recall and how to encourage him to do it. He wasn't scared being up there, he was hanging up side down chewing and looking around.

I think that's one of the major problems with birds that fly off, they are scared or don't have good flying skills. The fear, if that's what it is, :shrug2: may be what keeps them from returning to their owner. That is if they want to return.:) Thinking trust and history with the owner. Freedom must be a pretty big reinforcer for a bird, at least at that moment.

Anywho, when I noticed he was less interested in playing and started looking at me, I called him and all went great! I'm not going to use the retractable at places like the park any more. Too many variables that I have little control over.

One other thing that has gone through my mind stronger now. It's probably a good idea for *all* birds to have recall. A clipped bird - they fly off too - in my opinion, is harder to recover. They could climbed down the tree if they have a strong positive history with the owner and experience climbing down from high places.

[Sue]

Jeff, I had been really giving the 30' retractable attached the to lead a lot of thought. Just not enough elastic to slow down a fast flight before coming to the end. What I've noticed in the past is, this is hard to explain, if they are flying at a side angle away from me, so to speak, the elastic is pulling for a longer time and a turn is in effect. Straight away is like coming to a dead stop once the elastic is fully stretched.:eek:

Tues was a straight full force flight away from the retractable. If it hadn't come loose I'm pretty sure there could have been some body damage. Not to mention what the experience may have caused as far as flying or putting on the harness.

Jim, I have always wondered how the harness stops them in flight, I just had visions of them choking, is that possible? I mean do they always come back before reaching the end? Sorry if that's dense but that's why I didn't get the feather tether and I know the Aviator is far superior.

[Jim]

Good questions, Sue

I don't think choking, per se, is possible with any of the harnesses if used properly. Of course if you left the bird tied up unattended anything could happen. As for stopping them in flight. With the Aviator or Kaylor or Feather Tether the bird shouldn't get enough speed, with just the lead, to do physical damage. Steve and I did the elastic so the risk would be less and in hopes a 'flier' would quickly learn that the pull of the elastic would signal or remind the bird he was on the lead and turn and come back.

I went against what the harness is designed to do with the retractable. To much speed was allowed which is why I was glad the clasp I crimped back together let go.

My boys, and others I know that fly, do turn and come back when they feel the tightening or slow down the elastic is causing. To be honest, I've never seen a bird that wasn't a decent flier turn and come back. What I've seen is they keep pulling in the same direction until they go to the ground, usually softly. Still better than a fly off, imo, for a bird with little to no flight skills.

Since we're talking harnesses I'll share my opinions and experiences.

Feather Tether
Too many buckles and too heavy.
If the bird were to fly to the end of the lead I would think those buckles pulling on their body could cause harm.
Birds are afraid of the buckles or play with them and get out of it.

Kaylor
Good harness. I don't like the way the lead un-buckles from the harness. My guys un-buckled it faster than I could buckle it. Had to tie a piece of webbing to the harness so they couldn't undo it.
The harness webbing touches, goes up to the crop, which may or may not be a big deal. If the crop was full and the harness pulled I just don't know what may happen.

Aviator
Very good harness. Light weight, one piece and elastic on lead with loop for wrist.
Doesn't touch or cover the crop and the webbing is very flexible/soft but stronger than the others.

I know that's kind of long but I read it three or four times and couldn't take any more out and still be clear.

[Junkzoo]

Well since it's been a while since the "fly off" , i quess i better ask what i had in the back of my mind early no during this, (and maybe now you've had the time to rerun all of what occured in your head Jim)

Did the thought of " Wow, look how beautiful Teo looks in flight" ever come to you during this? I realize prob not at the time, but afterwards, when you were likely running the whole thing in your head, (over and over , i bet;) )

Just wondering if that thinking happened for you,with what went on then, and did you notice yourself thinking that when i happened, or realized it later on, when you re-ran the whole thing in your head later.

Might sound like a funny thing to ask, but i thought to myself if you had noticed ,or thought to yourself of Teo's flight as memorable(in the good way) at all.

Myself, other than Shelby flying outside (which was a life long lasting memory for me) I can't say i've ever seen "our cage birds" in free flight other than those that fly thru our homes.(which is not the same as when they have room to really let "go")I've seen Macaws fly free on TV, one being the nature type shows, and the other being that guy in Vegas, that uses his many birds in his act. He lives on a hill above other homes, and he would let his Macaws out to soar downward , either to fly over the homes downhill, or they would stop to "visit" those people living downhill of him.

Must be the tail, or the body size, but i think Macaws are the best looking free fliers of all the parrots IMO, when they really getting to flying.:wub:

Don't get me wrong, i love Shelby's outside antics (even the in house ones when i have to leave, and she will have nothing of it LOL) , but seeing Macaws in full flight mode is really something to see. I would prob add moisture to the rain forest ,if i ever saw wild macaws flying free in their natural environment (happy tears of course;) )

Sorry to horn in on your thread Jim, but just wanted to add a lil bit related to birds in flight:wavey:

[Sue]

Good questions, Sue

I don't think choking, per se, is possible with any of the harnesses if used properly. Of course if you left the bird tied up unattended anything could happen. As for stopping them in flight. With the Aviator or Kaylor or Feather Tether the bird shouldn't get enough speed, with just the lead, to do physical damage. Steve and I did the elastic so the risk would be less and in hopes a 'flier' would quickly learn that the pull of the elastic would signal or remind the bird he was on the lead and turn and come back.

I went against what the harness is designed to do with the retractable. To much speed was allowed which is why I was glad the clasp I crimped back together let go.

My boys, and others I know that fly, do turn and come back when they feel the tightening or slow down the elastic is causing. To be honest, I've never seen a bird that wasn't a decent flier turn and come back. What I've seen is they keep pulling in the same direction until they go to the ground, usually softly. Still better than a fly off, imo, for a bird with little to no flight skills.

Since we're talking harnesses I'll share my opinions and experiences.

Feather Tether
Too many buckles and too heavy.
If the bird were to fly to the end of the lead I would think those buckles pulling on their body could cause harm.
Birds are afraid of the buckles or play with them and get out of it.

Kaylor
Good harness. I don't like the way the lead un-buckles from the harness. My guys un-buckled it faster than I could buckle it. Had to tie a piece of webbing to the harness so they couldn't undo it.
The harness webbing touches, goes up to the crop, which may or may not be a big deal. If the crop was full and the harness pulled I just don't know what may happen.

Aviator
Very good harness. Light weight, one piece and elastic on lead with loop for wrist.
Doesn't touch or cover the crop and the webbing is very flexible/soft but stronger than the others.

I know that's kind of long but I read it three or four times and couldn't take any more out and still be clear.

I understand exactly what you're saying Jim, I didn't like the feather tether because of where the buckle is, not heard of the Kaylor, the Aviator sounded/looked the best option. Thanks for explaining how it works.

[Sue]

Well since it's been a while since the "fly off" , i quess i better ask what i had in the back of my mind early no during this, (and maybe now you've had the time to rerun all of what occured in your head Jim)

Did the thought of " Wow, look how beautiful Teo looks in flight" ever come to you during this? I realize prob not at the time, but afterwards, when you were likely running the whole thing in your head, (over and over , i bet;) )

Just wondering if that thinking happened for you,with what went on then, and did you notice yourself thinking that when i happened, or realized it later on, when you re-ran the whole thing in your head later.

Might sound like a funny thing to ask, but i thought to myself if you had noticed ,or thought to yourself of Teo's flight as memorable(in the good way) at all.

Myself, other than Shelby flying outside (which was a life long lasting memory for me) I can't say i've ever seen "our cage birds" in free flight other than those that fly thru our homes.(which is not the same as when they have room to really let "go")I've seen Macaws fly free on TV, one being the nature type shows, and the other being that guy in Vegas, that uses his many birds in his act. He lives on a hill above other homes, and he would let his Macaws out to soar downward , either to fly over the homes downhill, or they would stop to "visit" those people living downhill of him.

Must be the tail, or the body size, but i think Macaws are the best looking free fliers of all the parrots IMO, when they really getting to flying.:wub:

Don't get me wrong, i love Shelby's outside antics (even the in house ones when i have to leave, and she will have nothing of it LOL) , but seeing Macaws in full flight mode is really something to see. I would prob add moisture to the rain forest ,if i ever saw wild macaws flying free in their natural environment (happy tears of course;) )

Sorry to horn in on your thread Jim, but just wanted to add a lil bit related to birds in flight:wavey:

Jeff, I know what you mean, when we saw the parrots fly at Loro Parque Tenerife,I just sat there open mouthed and yes it brought tears to my eyes. I really , really hoped one would land on me but of course they didn't:(

[Jim]

Jeff -- I had to think about what you ask before I answered. When I first read your post the answer was yes, I was thinking how beautiful he was flying free and that may have over whelmed my concern most would think I should have had.

Now that I've looked back, I wasn't concerned, beautiful or not. I have played the whole thing over and over so many times about intentional or escaped free flight it was more like - here it is, this is what to do, and that's it. Period.

They're big and have good flying skills, so hawks aren't a big concern. I need to say this. I would be VERY concerned of hawks if the bird that was free gave the smallest hint he struggled with flight or was clipped.

Not to bore you or anyone with what may sound like my egotistical self.:D A few years back I started a list of - Why would my bird come back -- Can he get back -- Do I have the ability/skill to get him back. I was as honest with myself as I could be when filling in or changing the answers as time went on. Today I feel pretty comfortable, as in this situation, they will come back of they own volition.

I'll just say this. The - Can he get back - which is their part of the deal, was and still is ahead of the other two. :)

[Junkzoo]

Gotcha :thumbup: 100% .

[Jean]

Oh my Jim! My heart sunk as I begin reading your post. I am so glad Teo was safe and not two frightened to return to you quickly.:tighthug: Your cool manner, training and handling skills paid off. :beerchug:

[Ginny]

Jim,
I am so gald this all ended with a Happy ending but that is what I would have expected with you and the boys. You have trained them well. Since you have been talking about the Avatar.....I went to our bird show today and there is a vender there that sells them. I have been looking for a yellow one for Bacardi, do you know if they make yellow? They look well made. If we go back tomorrow I am going to see if they will take one out and put it on a toy bird so I can see how easy it is to do. I have to agree they are great because they don't have all the metal and clips on them so they are lighter in weight.

You are a good daddy and your boys have a lot of respect and trust in you. :goodjob:

On another note......We ALMOST bought a Major Mitchell today. Isn't there someone on here that has 2??? I was not sure about their personality, this one was nice and didn't bite but really didn't want to be held. I was not sure if it was because of all the excitement or if that is just the way they are ..... not a touchy kind of bird. It was a beautiful bird and only 3 months old. That is my dream bird.

[Jim]

Hi Ginny, thanks. Been a while since I've talked with you - Hope all is well.

Sorry, there is no yellow Aviator harness. Here's the link, you probably already have it, with the colors.

http://theparrotuniversity.com/aviator.php

Can't help much on the personality of a Major Mitchell. I'll give ya my 5 cents tho. :) 3 months old and not a touchy kind of bird could be a good thing. He's being a bird.:D You've probably heard me yell way to much about this stuff.... but, imo, he's right where he should be. At fledging, as in a natural/wild situation, is when it's time for social skills to be learned.

I know that goes over like a lead balloon.:p

[Jim]

Jeff and all -- Got a question or maybe picking your brian would be more like it, for you and anyone that could give some input.

Can a bird learn when to work and when to play like a K-9 dog? I'm thinking since dogs are domesticated they don't have that instinct to be free, for lack of a better word, that birds seem to have.

See, I'd love to train the boys that a certain cue meant it's time to do your job, which would be free flying and coming back the instant I called. All other time is have fun and play. I can't work this out in my head and have gotten differing thoughts on it.:shrug2:

[Ginny]

Hi Ginny, thanks. Been a while since I've talked with you - Hope all is well.

Sorry, there is no yellow Aviator harness. Here's the link, you probably already have it, with the colors.

http://theparrotuniversity.com/aviator.php

Can't help much on the personality of a Major Mitchell. I'll give ya my 5 cents tho. :) 3 months old and not a touchy kind of bird could be a good thing. He's being a bird.:D You've probably heard me yell way to much about this stuff.... but, imo, he's right where he should be. At fledging, as in a natural/wild situation, is when it's time for social skills to be learned.

I know that goes over like a lead balloon.:p

Thanks for the link. I thought I had it but I didn't. I am doing fine. Just been busy re-doing my one bedroom and then went to my dad's for a week.
You have a good point about the bird just being a bird. I guess I was looking for it to be like the white cockatoo's :roflmao2: There was a Triton the same man had :wub: Oh my she -he would just lay his head in your hand and let you rub all over him.

[Ginny]

Jeff and all -- Got a question or maybe picking your brian would be more like it, for you and anyone that could give some input.

Can a bird learn when to work and when to play like a K-9 dog? I'm thinking since dogs are domesticated they don't have that instinct to be free, for lack of a better word, that birds seem to have.

See, I'd love to train the boys that a certain cue meant it's time to do your job, which would be free flying and coming back the instant I called. All other time is have fun and play. I can't work this out in my head and have gotten differing thoughts on it.:shrug2:

Now this is just a thought.....you know I don't think like birds like you do :roflmao2: BUT what if the flying to have fun was just for fun and making daddy happy and having a good time...... but the flying for work always had food or treats.

[Jim]

Now this is just a thought.....you know I don't think like birds like you do :roflmao2: BUT what if the flying to have fun was just for fun and making daddy happy and having a good time...... but the flying for work always had food or treats.That's an excellent way to look at it, Ginny.:agree: That's pretty much in a nut shell what some people do that free fly their birds. Not to get long winded, they weigh them and keep a record of the weight they work best at. That sounds strange or mean but if done right it's the only way to really know if the bird is hungry and food will be enough reinforcement to get them to come back.

I don't disagree with this method, it's with out a doubt, one of the tools to use and a good one. Just my opinion, it can easily become a crouch for a sloppy trainer.:eek: I have seen it said too many times for my liking, "the bird wasn't hungry enough is why he didn't do X." Gheee I guess if my boys were hungry enough they would fly to my son who they don't like at all. That's not training to me. More like coercion.:funny:

Plus, and thanks for your thoughts,:thumbup: if it's an escape like this thing at the park. Teo wasn't the least bit hungry and didn't even take the treat I offered when he flew down. I did walk around with him and Nino for a bit. Didn't want him to relate coming down meant going straight to the truck.

[Ginny]

That's an excellent way to look at it, Ginny.:agree: That's pretty much in a nut shell what some people do that free fly their birds. Not to get long winded, they weigh them and keep a record of the weight they work best at. That sounds strange or mean but if done right it's the only way to really know if the bird is hungry and food will be enough reinforcement to get them to come back.

I don't disagree with this method, it's with out a doubt, one of the tools to use and a good one. Just my opinion, it can easily become a crouch for a sloppy trainer.:eek: I have seen it said too many times for my liking, "the bird wasn't hungry enough is why he didn't do X." Gheee I guess if my boys were hungry enough they would fly to my son who they don't like at all. That's not training to me. More like coercion.:funny:

Plus, and thanks for your thoughts,:thumbup: if it's an escape like this thing at the park. Teo wasn't the least bit hungry and didn't even take the treat I offered when he flew down. I did walk around with him and Nino for a bit. Didn't want him to relate coming down meant going straight to the truck.

I think a lot of the zoo's that had animal shows and bird shows used that method, Not sure if they still do. But they would not feed them in the morning they would get their food at the first show and then would keep track of how much they got so by the next show they would be hungry again and then what ever was left that should be their daily serving they would get at the end of all the shows. Not that I agree with that but it is different when you HAVE to put on a show for people that are paying to see it and having your bird show off for a friend at home or just do something you want them to do for you.

BUT as for you and a pet..... they already know what you want them to do so you don't need the treats any more. But if you wanted them to work and wanted them to know it was time to work and not just have a good time I would guess a real SPECIAL treat maybe would get them to work and then when it was just fun their treat would be just having fun with dad. They already know the trick or command you want from them, so this would be for after they learn what it is that you want from them. But then on the other hand like with your boys. They just want to please daddy and they know what it is your want so they do it just for the fun of it and to please you. I am not sure you would have to do anything different for them to work or have fun.

[Junkzoo]

Jeff and all -- Got a question or maybe picking your brian would be more like it, for you and anyone that could give some input.

Can a bird learn when to work and when to play like a K-9 dog? I'm thinking since dogs are domesticated they don't have that instinct to be free, for lack of a better word, that birds seem to have.

See, I'd love to train the boys that a certain cue meant it's time to do your job, which would be free flying and coming back the instant I called. All other time is have fun and play. I can't work this out in my head and have gotten differing thoughts on it.:shrug2:

:scratchch Hmm, i'd have to put some thought into that Jim. I can see where you are going with this, but not sure how to give you input right now.
I'm having trouble comparing or coming up with differences between the two animals, and "how their brains work"(for lack of a better choice of words) Domestication seems to be the part i'm trying to nail down here , concerning the two. Dolphins for example know "work " and "not work" and i've heard of stories of trained dolphins being released via a gate to the ocean, and they leave for a bit, and then return in time. other animals, like horses, know when it's time to run, or do the steelpechase kinda thing, and i think they know when it's time to "work" and when it's not.Show dogs know when they have to get it into gear while in the show ring, and i feel they sense when they did good (likely vibes from the handler:shrug2: )
Birds/parrots are taught by pos. means when they "go the trick"(or food , but who in the animal kingdom, including us does not do that LOL)
I'm sure the boys know when it's time to do what you ask, but i think in your case you mix training with fun for them(I'm thinking/hoping you know what i meant by that) Without someone getting into the "head" of a bird, we will prob never know if they can tell when it's time to work, and time to frolic about, but i believe if the time spent w/ your boys is structured with something of a training-work theme, and then somehow(through a special area type action) be allowed to do whatever you know to be just fun time for them, w/ no cues from you,that might be something that might give you a indication along the lines of what you are thinking .

I had trouble putting this all down in trying to make sense of it, so i would not be surprised if you , or anyone else could have followed me in this post LOL.:shrug2: :rotflmao:

[tropiclegirl]

Hmmmm? I thought i replied to this the other day :scratchch

Jim you are so lucky that everything turned out ok. But at the same time, why would'nt it................you're the bird whisperer and you have trained your boys VERY well:beerchug:.

[Jim]

Thanks Ginny and Jeff. Your input is very helpful and appreciated.

Ginny - As far as I know professional trainers do just what you said. The birds are feed after the behaviors or show. I do this to some degree. I think it's good for the birds to even do little things like step-up, talk, wave, big bird, etc. They work-perform behaviors to get food in the wild, fly, hang, watch for predators, etc. Below is more thoughts about what you and Jeff both said.

Jeff - You made a lot of sense to me. This is a tough thing to discuss in the written word.:) Domestication.... hmmmmmm.... what I'm trying to say is, with dogs, in general, the instinct to hunt, fear humans (so to speak), live free or wild is not at the for front, to them. Agreed? I'm thinking, like a pet dog that turns feral, the instinct isn't gone it comes back to life, and they shy away from humans. So... how I can I say this:scratchch where a dog may be gone for a few days, being domestic it's no biggy. Not sure how much freedom and or time would pass before a bird would become feral. I hope that makes at least some sense so you both can understand where I'm at or thinking.

This is really good guys, I need to hear this and talk about it. OK, birds, dolphins, horses, that we all know and agree on, can be trained to do wonderful things. They know when to work and receive rewards from us. Plus, it must at some level be self-rewarding to them. We or the trainer/handler don't live with them. They see the handler and experience has taught them something good is going to happen - 99% of the time. When we live with then we don't have that luxury.

Boy, I hope that makes some sense. Maybe this will help if it didn't. We can be wonderful parents, do everything for our kids, they love us and don't leave home. Now that same kid is at the pool having fun and won't get out to go home for us. Grandma and Grandpa pull up and ask him to come home and he jumps out and runs to them. Grandma & Grandpa aren't better parents the kid's history with them (lets say 99% of the time) is all good. I'm thinking, not living with Grandma & Grandpa, makes them or the reward they offer, more valuable to the kid.

[Jim]

Thanks Tina. You're too kind. I try to train them best I can and I am proud of them.

I'm just not sure, as you can see in the above post, that I can have both worlds. Free flight and live with them like I do. I mean I don't worry about them coming back or even in the right place, letting them fly back and forth to people. I would like to take them to the park and let them go like you can a well trained dog and simply call them if they got to far or it's time to go home.

[Ginny]

Well other then the huge risk factor I think your boys would be just fine. Now on the other end.....wild going domesticated.....I had a wild dove that would come to the front door or one of my windows several times a day and I would give it food. It would hang out around the house and if I was outside it would fly down on me or near me and just hang out. She would eat out of my hand. She has been doing this for about 3 or 4 years now. On the note of the danger...I have not seen her in about 6 weeks. I am so sad. At first I thought she might be on eggs but I think by now she would be off the nest at least for a little while to get food. I am afraid a hawk or something got her. Now your macaws are pretty big for a bird of pray but I guess there is alway danger out there and them growing up with you to protect them I am not sure how much of a fear of the wild they have. I am sure they all have some degree of fear. So with all that said I think if a wild bird will come to me every day for years I am sure your boys would come to you, just by the way they act. BUT this is not true for all wild bird nor is it true for all pets. So I would NOT!!!!! recommend people try this with their pets. It takes a special bird like Shelby and your boys to be able to trust like that. It is also rare you find birds with that kind of bond with humans that they would rather be with them then have a chance to fly and then a lot of them would get lost or scared and not be able to get home. My birds LOVE me and have a great bond but Bacardi got scared once and took off to the end of the block and didn't even try to come home. It is just a good thing we were able to find her. Not that she wanted to get away she just doesn't have that in her to not wonder too far. Little kids are like that. You will have some children that won't go far from their parents and some don't think about just wondering off. Dogs are the same way...my son's dog from when she was just a puppy will stay right in the yard and not go too far away from you. That is real rare for a little dog. NEVER had to train her just always did it. So I guess the bottom line is it depends on the animal and you have to know your animal pretty good to know how much you can trust them. Then with the training it is the same. Some will do what you want EVERY time and some might be just ok about doing what you ask or want them to do. As for your boys and Shelby I think they are with the group that are special and you can trust.
I hope that makes sense and I didn't get too long winded.

[Jim]

Ginny, It makes prefect sense. I've been tossing this around in my head. That's why I haven't responded. You have opened my eyes to some things I had not added in the mix. I'm working on it and will have more later. So you won't be wondering, real quick. I was hung up on some things I learned back when I started this free flight and training stuff and had completely swept it under the rug.

It's the bond or love thing. That's a hard thing to measure, if we really can. I learned from the start to NEVER assume your bird will return to you because he LOVES you. The net is full of lost birds that loved their owners. Even clipped birds that aren't skilled fliers have flown away from thy beloved Romeo when he climbs the tree. Why would these birds that love these people so much, fly off, not come back or climb down when they were in sight? That's how it was put to me, I know - kind of snotty, but it did make me get honest with myself about it. It probably saved me from the lost bird experience.

I'm getting a grip on this love thing though. I'm calling it trust or better yet, although it sounds a little cold, a contract. One between me and the boys that we BOTH honor fully.

Hope I didn't sound 'un-feeling' but if I'm going to take this risk and put the boys in the equation. It has to be observable, measurable, and repeatable (scientific, best it can) - for me.

Thank you so much Ginny. Your posts have given me hope and a new venture to under take or way to look at it. I'll post more when I work out some details.

Thank you too Jeff, and others that didn't beat me up over Teo escaping.

[Ginny]

Oh my no one can beat you up because of Teo escaping. It was good info and something for everyone to think about. When you free flight you just never know what could happen. It comes down to one thing you HAVE to KNOW your bird, I mean really know your bird and even then it is not 100%. Then again you have people that think they know their bird or birds but just don't have that inter thing (can't explain it) to REALLY know what they are thinking. It is kind of like a soul mate thing.
Oh well I guess I better stop before people think I am crazy. LOL

[parrotgirl]

I'm so glad that everything turned out okay. Next time the Grey Guys are messing about and I start moaning about the training, I'll think of this and carry on regardless. Thank you Jim, You give the boys a great big head scritch from me. :wub: And Jim well done to you for training them so well.

Bucc is getting good with the recall, and Kito well if he thinks he's getting a head scritch he'll come straight away. (He always gets his wish a BIG head scritch)

[Shirley]

Excellent thread and discussion.

There were talks by veterinarians - one being a falconer, who treats birds of prey and has done research with them -- and the "keeping them lean" subject was discussed scientifically and subjectively at length. They work for treats, the fly to hunt, not for fun, and food is what they are looking for. Shelby flies for attention. She flies from person to person -- I've not seen her fly away for fun yet. When she's outside with a new person, it's hard to get her to fly at all... she just wants to sit on the new person.

I also talked with people who fly their parrots at shows and asked them how they get them to fly back to them rather than land on a child's head instead. Positive Reinforcement, food treat, while they may be somewhat hungry, they are far from "starving". And it was all about *teaching*, not *training*.

[Jim]

...I also talked with people who fly their parrots at shows and asked them how they get them to fly back to them rather than land on a child's head instead. Positive Reinforcement, food treat, while they may be somewhat hungry, they are far from "starving". And it was all about *teaching*, not *training*.Hey, Hey -- Not to split hairs here.:) Teaching or training are both learning and that's the main goal. The word teaching is a more comfortable word for some people than training. I see "teaching" or "learning" used a lot now-a-days. Granted, it does have a softer tone. The bird has to learn which R+ is all about. So, to me, yes R+ is teaching. Most of us could teach someone to swim. Could we teach them to win a race or save a life in a swift current? If we had the knowledge and expertise we could help them train (train them) for such a thing. Providing we knew the parts of their swimming that needed work.

You saw my boys at your house where they had never flown before. By flying in many different situations, I call this training, they were able to fly any where on their first attempt with no mishaps. Remember when I came up from the basement with Nino and your kitty was out. Nino had never flown there and only seen that part of the house twice. The time I took them down to get used to where they would sleep and when I put them to bed. He flew away from the kitty, saw there was no safe place to land where he was (your reptile tanks), tuned in mid air (almost a hover), and went to the bathroom door that he had never seen opened. He could have done this had he never seen this part of the house before. I don't call that teaching. That's training, to me. Flying in many different situations, being in shape or fit, and the experiences he has had allowed for a safe outcome to what could have been a big disaster.

I'm not trying to be picky. Teaching recall won't get a bird out of a tree or keep him off an unapproved place. Teaching recall and training him, probably will. It's just words. Whatever word works is great.:) I would hate to see a bird outside or owner confident that their bird could or would fly back if he wasn't "trained" or had "training" for the task at hand.

Here's a link to Merriam-Webster about "Teaching" - then look at training as a verb.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/teaching

[Shirley]

I percieve the words the same way you do, Jim... the point at the conference was more that "training" is often viewed as "performing tricks" by the lay person, and that "teaching" is more for "respecting the parrot's intelligence and teaching them new behaviors". Excellent point on teaching someone to do something, and then putting them in training to excel at it to win competitions, be able to do a more professional job at it, such as in police officers who ride bikes on duty must be trained for speed endurance, etc, perhaps, or a water safety professional must be able to swim out into the deep water, ocean water, etc to save a struggling life. Good point!

[Jim]

Yep... we're in total agreement.:) Grrrr.... us humans and the power words have on how we perceive things.