Frustrated Amazon

[morgavin]

Hi,
I just joined the forum and need help understanding how to deal with a frustrated bird. Pepper was recently given to me because the ppl had tooo many birds. She is a yellow naped Amazon age uinknown. She has had quite the time of it lately. Passed along to three different ppl in less than a month. She really likes women and I don't fit the discription. She won't let me handle her and has started pulling out feathers. I've had her for six days and am worried about the feather thing. I'm trying to be patient and talk to her a lot. She is well fed and recieves a variety of foods from fresh veggies, fruit, and seemingly her favorite....chicken. Any help or advice will be gr8ly appreciated. Hope I posted in the right area

[Joe]

Have you taken her to an avian specialist for a complete check up? If not, I suggest doing so. Zons can be difficult to handle, especially older birds. Do you know the age/sex? Zons are famous for being hot headed and are not always "hands on" birds. Zons are low maintenance in since that they are not lap dogs and like being independent.

[Shirley]

First of all, Welcome to the board, and congratulations on taking on such a challenge!

She needs a trip to a qualified Avian vet as soon as possible for a complete feather plucker physical: fecal, skin, and blood work-up. In Indiana, this can cost at least $175. A regular vet cannot do this, and if they say they can, then find an avian vet who really can do this work.

Many, many factors can cause feather plucking, and the first things to rule out are blood chemistry problems, bacterial skin infection, fungal infections of the skin, running a fecal to make sure everything is ok there, as well as checking the crop to make sure it's clear of problems.

Next you have dietary, environmental, stress, emotional, hormonal, etc causes. Is the bird male or female? If you don't know, then DNA sexing is in order, and up here, this can cost $40+ done by an avian vet.

How much sleep is the bird getting? Parrots need 12 hrs of *uninterrupted* dark, quiet sleep with a nightlight. Covered cage is optional, but no interruptions is a must.

Ours sleep from 9:30 to 9:30.

Is the bird getting a daily misting and a soaking shower 1-2 times a week? If it is feather plucking, then a shower every day before 3:00 is essential until the plucking stops.

Is she mutilating her skin? If so, she needs to be seen asap by an avian vet, and a collar prescribed by the vet is likely in order to prevent further mutilation and to allow healing. Antibiotics given orally will probably be prescribed at this point as well. You'll need to know how to properly hold the bird with a towel (see The Elements of Bird Care (forumdisplay.php?f=6)) so you can give her the oral meds, plus be sure the vet teaches you and watches you do it yourself before you leave.

It will take a good deal of time to gain the bird's trust... lots of patience on your part... soft voice, slow movements, proper diet, routine, tell the bird everything you are doing, tell her good night, good morning, when you are leaving, that you are coming back, every thing as though she is a 2-yr-old child.

Kindness is the key... never show frustration, even when she bites you, and she will. Simply say, "No Bite" in a quiet but firm voice and continue with what you were doing.

Is this your first parrot? If so, then you have your hands full. It's like giving a wild stallion to someone before they can ride, and please don't take that wrong... but you will need lots of support. Do you know someone nearby who is experienced who can help you? This bird has seen a lot of homes, and that in itself is extremely stressful for a bird. They are like human children being passed from foster home to foster home, and become very fearful, and with this fear, they are susceptible to becoming ill more easily, feather-plucking due to lack of any control or consistency in their lives, and all sorts of problems that arise from the insecurities and fears due to no "real home" or "unconditional love".

Thank you for posting and asking -- that's the most important first step! Please keep us updated and let us know anything you need; we are here to help and there are many of us with a wide range of experiences. :heart:

[Jean]

I want to say I am sorry your new amazon is having such a difficult time. It is easily understandable hearing of her so many recent homes.

I think Shirley covered all basis well with her reply and see no need to add any additional information except, be aware feather plucking can easily lead to total mutation and open wounds that can kill a bird immediately.. When they are unhappy they self distruct.

I wish you well, and thank you, for asking. I agree whole hearted with Shirley's advice.

[Junkzoo]

Welcome! Like was said, you might have a handful ,especially if this is your first bird. what Shirley and others have posted is great advice, you need to determine if it's health related.If it just started since you got the bird, i would say that the bird is a little "stir crazy" or mainly nervous in the new surrounds.
One thing to do is try to make the surroundings close to what the bird has been around in the past.
Some tips/help here,,,,
With other birds
children/no children( not asking you to change this for either reasonLOL)
other pets,or going from a lot of other animals to having none
normal daily rountines changed? try to find out what was done with the bird(taking it out of the cage, talking to it,in the same room as people in the house/or not.)
What i'm getting at is, you want to try to replicate the surroundings the bird has been used to(even if it was "bounced" amoung people lately)
If/when it's determined not to be of a health nature,and you have surroundings close to what it was used to before, then i would say,try offering toys in it's cage,,things that will occupy it's mind, and get it to forget about mutilating itself, Toys it can chew on, toys it can manipulate,and/or toys it can just plain TEAR up!(NO mirrors)
Spend some time around the bird, if it's not in the "living" area of the home.
Just hang around with the bird ,talk to it, at first try not to "get in it's face" too much, give it time, sounds like it's been thru a lot already.
A lot of birds are more protective of it's cage, and act differently when away from the cage.
After , or while at the vet's, get the wings clipped correctly(see Shirley's post about this) and work with the bird(out of the cage) with either a spare perch ,at first ,and then put your hand in the perch's place.
One thing about parrots, it's said biting is NOT a defensive,nature action, it's LEARNED. the bird "learns" you leave it alone when it does nip/bite you, it will use that against you,,
Sounds funny, but if you get into training with this bird,you have to have the mindset , you WILL get bit/nipped.If you tell the bird NO(firmly, no yelling)like Shirley said before,try it again, and try not to show too much reaction from a bite. I know it's tough not to scream like a banshee while a bite is going on, but trust me, you will prob get nowhere if you let the bird know he won,,just shake it off quietly, like nothing happened, and continue for a while longer, you don't want to end a training session with the bird getting what it wants,you want to end it with what YOU wanted out of the bird,
It does take time to win over a bird, even more so with a adopted/rescued bird. but it can work out,,,
Let's just try to get that feather picking cause ID'ed and then on to training.
Good Luck , and keep us posted on the goings on of your new bird
Again , Welcome to BOF!:wavey:

[morgavin]

Thnx for the replies. Not first bird. Years ago, blue front, orange wing, red naped conure, budgie, handle lots of birds in that ex worked in a pet store some 20 yrs ago. Everything from blue and gold to mealy to budgie. Bird was checked by vet just before it left its original loving home. Female but age unknown. She has extreme water intake needs, she piddles all the time. Always change water and juice twice a day. I am VERY patient and like suggested talk to Pepper constantly. I really would like for this to be the last adjustment she has. The avian vet is on the list before weeks end. She hasn't had a bath since I've had her. I hear she loves taking a shower on your shoulder as my orange wing did. I'll give her a big glass bowl pronto and thnx again for your advice. Just want to be a good friend and see she has every advantage....I feel birds are really good companions and I don't want to let her down... by the way.... macaws bite really hard , luckily I have a HIGH threshold to pain....LOL

[Shirley]

Juice? What kind of juice?

[morgavin]

cranberry with no extras... very careful what I give her

[Junkzoo]

Well, Glad to hear you've had experience (i coulda save me a lotta typin, and you a lot of reading lol)sounds like you got a handle of the situation,,
let us know how it goes;)

[morgavin]

sorry about the time outs...multi tasking...lol

[Shirley]

Hmmm. Why cranberry juice? I'm not sure of the pH of cranberry juice.

Citrus is a no-no except for the infrequent small piece of orange... the pH of citrus is wrong for the bird gut. I'm not sure about cranberry. Apple is OK, but not as a free-choice juice. Is the cranberry juice given daily as free choice? I personally would stop and wait for your avian vet's advice on that.

Drinking excessive amounts of water is not a good sign.. are the droppings runny? or normal black/white?

Extra large in the a.m. is fine as they rarely go during the night.

[morgavin]

Jeff,
I had a reef tank two years b4 joining TRT and did so when extreme problem occured. I refuse to do this again...all the advice give here helps and is appreciated. Being it was so long ago I had birds I want to be sure I'm doing everything I can... Thank you all and I will post pics and keep everyone updated...

[morgavin]

Shirley,
The avian vet that saw Pepper said that this was her make up. Not all animals are the same... was told this by original owner and that it was to be expected. I will limit the juice to occasionally....

[Shirley]

Shirley,
The avian vet that saw Pepper said that this was her make up. Not all animals are the same... was told this by original owner and that it was to be expected. I will limit the juice to occasionally....

The part I marked in bold red I don't understand what you mean... part of her make up... ?

I've talked with a lot of avian vets and avian vet techs, read lots of avian vet journals, sure don't claim to know it all, but I don't get this at all... :shrug:
We never give our parrots any juice unless it's a sip of what we're drinking at the time.

[Islandzoo]

Hmmm. Why cranberry juice? I'm not sure of the pH of cranberry juice.

Citrus is a no-no except for the infrequent small piece of orange... the pH of citrus is wrong for the bird gut. I'm not sure about cranberry. Apple is OK, but not as a free-choice juice. Is the cranberry juice given daily as free choice? I personally would stop and wait for your avian vet's advice on that.

Drinking excessive amounts of water is not a good sign.. are the droppings runny? or normal black/white?

Extra large in the a.m. is fine as they rarely go during the night.

I am surprised to hear that, I know many animal parks that give parrots orange daily - I thought it was ok for them? mind you,
my grandmother has an RSPCA book on Budgies...ok will start new topic on that one! it had some very disputable points in.

[morgavin]

Well the flesh is broken... only one really hard bite and Pepper has walked the ladder....up my fingers from hand to hand with a gentle up command (at least 10 times in a row):emot-danc . She seems to have accepted me handling her at this point. It was really rewarding to have her finally stop biting and climb up to my shoulder and let out a very loud laugh.... like the joke was on me.... to the vet tomorrow....shower later....surprising how smart they are

[morgavin]

Shirley

I can only say what was related to me that she just piddles a lot (normal and healthy for her). As all animals, each one is slightly different. What may not be considered normal in general is normal ( not sick,stressed,etc.) for another. Like I can eat everything and anything as much as I want and still weigh the same as I did when 14, I'm now 51. Now another might blow up like a balloon. Just her biology.

[Shirley]

(you and food sound just like my husband! :D )

Your progress sounds wonderful! Delightful news today! Can't wait to hear what the vet says tomorrow about the feather plucking. Also, I'm curious of the opinion on the cranberry juice. :)

[morgavin]

Shirley

How to post pics and size limit? tried a search and "sorry" was all I got

[Joe]

Shirley,

My vet advised me to to mix a tablespoon of lemon juice in the flock's water twice a week. He stated that the acidity was good for them in this small amounts and is excellent for keeping their crop well-balanced. Cranberry juice may have too much sugar.

[Junkzoo]

Glad you survived your "nip",,,,,The best that would have come from it,is that the bird learned it did not matter.or get the desired effect from nailing you.(always a weird feeling giving up a hand/fingers ,knowing in the back of your mind ,pain that you can't show is on it's way..,,:ohmy: :agree:
Congrats on the progress, keep it up,don't sound like much maybe to you, but you actually got a lot accomplished !:beerchug: :thumbup:

[morgavin]

Just talked to the vet on the phone about the juice....stop the cranberry.... only very seldom and not recomended. Glad I came here and stopped when there was a question about if good or not...juice in general small amounts ocasionally....fresh fruit instead....as far as the feathers... she said only if she continues for a couple mor days.....Hope the handling helps her accept her new home and she stops.... not finding any bare spots or a whole lot of feathers after a day and fresh cage....I clean it very well every other day....I will keep a close eye and update as thing progress...

[morgavin]

NIP!!!!:eek:

try 1/2" gouge but worth the reward

[Shirley]

Shirley,

My vet advised me to to mix a tablespoon of lemon juice in the flock's water twice a week. He stated that the acidity was good for them in this small amounts and is excellent for keeping their crop well-balanced. Cranberry juice may have too much sugar.

This was posted on a bird board by someone, I can't remember who, and it wasn't copyrighted, so here it is, and it was taken from an avian vet. I think it explains the lemon juice you are advised to use:

(quote)
The normal pH of the psittacine gut is 3. The normal pH of the mammalian gut or carnivorous birds like raptors is 1. It's a big difference in acidity and one you do not want to change dramatically or for lengths of time.

Guess what happens to all that *good flora* that lives there and helps with digestion? Guess what happens to all the delicate membranes of the GI? If you guessed these suffer from excessive, chronic acidity, you guessed right. Good flora dies off and the membranes of the gastrointestinal tract become ulcerated.

The keywords here are *excessive and chronic acidity*. A slice of citrus fruit or a sip of citrus juice now and then will not hurt. Apple cider vinegar and water is often used as a alternative treatment for slight bacterial infections of the crop, but very weak and for a short period of time. A better choice of juice to offer would be papaya or mango juice, preferably natural and organic.

(end quote)

[Joe]

Shirley,

Its refreshing to see that someone actually qoutes, instead of simply pasting the info!

I avoid fruit for the most part because of the sugar level. I try to stick with Harrison's pellets, green veggies, and avoid sugary/starchy foods as much as possible. The flock's current diet was the result of my vet's suggestion and much research. My vet stated that sugary/starchy food can lead to an impulsive bird and behavioral problems.

[Shirley]

Same here... we rarely feed starch or sugar... as in fruit. They get a little apple when we eat apple. And dried fruits if they like them, but most of our birds don't care for fruits. They like baked sweet potatos, though. :)

[Shirley]

Shirley

How to post pics and size limit? tried a search and "sorry" was all I got

Check out Community Aviary soon.. I'm going to post a how-to there.

~ Shirley

[Junkzoo]

NIP!!!!:eek:

try 1/2" gouge but worth the reward

Well, I was trying to downplay it,,,you've been thru enough LOL
Congrats on the seemingly improvement on the feather situation,,,hope it was just a short,short term condition,,from the bouncing around. Sounds like it's getting used to the law of the land there,and continued good luck on your progress!:thumbup:

[Jean]

I do not feed much fruit either. I give it to him as an occasional snack or reward. Apple is the most common one I use as a treat, an occational berry or pitted cherry is about it.

[Junkzoo]

Ditto,,mostly veggies,,and a apple cut up for all, once inna while a lil bit of cantaloupe(did i spell that right? prob the first time in my life i type THAT word! LOL),,,oh, and seedless grapes also,,,:D

[morgavin]

Everything progressing very well now when she bites its only a touch...what a difference. She went nuts in the shower and has started talking and singing a lot. She readily lets me handle her, but I'll be patient on wings and things besides her head. She enjoys a good scratching on her neck. Its strarting to be like old times:dance: I can't say thanks enough for the advice and support from the ppl here

[morgavin]

I went to the "polite Parrot" and copied the make up of the Amazon diet at the link she provided. If this is truely a well documented resource for the care and feeding of birds, I think you will find this interesting. It pertains to the discusion on citrus and cranberry

Each species has their own needs and preferences. This formula was developed with the unique desires of the Amazon in mind. This very special formula uses a distinct ratio of vegetables to fruits to seeds to nuts to flowers. Yes! Flowers are a huge part of the Amazon diet in the wild. Citrus is too! That is why we have included citrus of various kinds in this particular diet. Human-grade, organic ingredients are as follows: Cranberries, squash, dandelion greens, bananas, alfalfa, yams, almonds, hemp seed meal, hemp oil, unsweetened coconut, carrots, apricots, buckwheat meal (not wheat at all, but instead actually a berry!), papaya, pineapple, sunflower seed meal, quinoa, black beans, pumpkin seeds, safflower seeds, walnuts, citrus zest, palm oil, blueberries, cherries, hemp seeds, mango, sunflower seeds, buckwheat groats, lentils, raisins, Brazilian marine coral calcium, CA-Montmorillonite clay, basil, bee pollen, cilantro, diatomaceous earth (DE), eucalyptus leaves, kelp, milk thistle powder, parsley,proprietary edible flower mix, rose hips, rosemary, sage sea salt, spirulina, tender grass shoots (may include any one of the following: wheatgrass, alfalfagrass, barleygrass), wild mountain oregano, dairy-free probiotics. In addition, dehydrated mealworms providing essential “animal protein”. We cannot list the worms in our general list of ingredients

[Shirley]

Very interesting! I went to her site and printed the ingredients for the African Poicephalus diet, since it is different from your average parrot diet, too! Thank you so much!

http://www.thepoliteparrot.com

I also noticed that our forum Birds of a Feather is linked there under Resources, Bird Forums! :emot-danc

Thanks, Neil!!!

And I'm thrilled to hear of your continued progress! Can't wait to see photos!

Shirley :) :highfive: :wub:

[morgavin]

Well here she is.... kind of a cam hog... walked right up sooo close first pic blurred... had to step way back to get good one

[Jean]

Awww he's very pretty. I am so glad to hear you have been learning a lot. Please, keep us posted how things go. :)

have enjoyed reading her information too.:) I'll have to check out her diets later.

[Shirley]

O-o-oh! Very nice! And nice cage, too! Keep 'em coming! :dance:

:thanx:

[Junkzoo]

So glad to hear of the great progress you are making!:goodjob:
Thanks for the pics, and continue to keep us posted:wavey:

[morgavin]

Well,

Another threshold of promise...Pepper actually came down from her perch and "asked" to be scratched. She didn't flinch, try to bite, just came down made a few sounds and bent her head down, fluffed, and waited for me to scratch her. :emot-danc I am a single guy in a three bdrm house and thinking she should have her own room. I will do some research and get some ideas on how to set up an aviary for her. On another note, I smoke. NOT in the house any more and it has slowed down. Shopping has now changed in that I buy more fresh fruit and vegetables thinking "would Pepper like this". Having her is improving my life as I try to improve her's. A very good thing all around. :thanx:
I'm sure glad to get to this point as my fingers have enough leaks. LOL

[morgavin]

Another question
I have a chinese pear tree that I have "pruned". There are some substantial sized limbs that I was considering for the aviary. Do you think the would be harmful in any way. Would I have to strip the bark???

[Shirley]

Check Practical Links... I just added safe and toxic woods and plants links there. :thumbup:

[morgavin]

Shirley,:thanx:
took a little searching from link to link... All parts of plants/trees belonging to the Prunus species, with the EXCEPTION of the fruit itself, contain cyanogenic glycosides.This includes apricot, peach, nectarine, plum and cherry. The kernels inside these fruits should not be fed to birds, nor the wood used for perches.

apple family seems to b ok... there is soooo much conflicting information that it makes it hard to decide without extensive investigation.....moving ahead ssslllooooowwwwllyy.

[Junkzoo]

Congrats on both of your progess! and your lifestyle changes for both of you!:thumbup:

[Jean]

Shirley,:thanx:
took a little searching from link to link...
apple family seems to b ok... there is soooo much conflicting information that it makes it hard to decide without extensive investigation.....moving ahead ssslllooooowwwwllyy.

Neil, I am so glad you are finding a lot of good information to read. This information you have brought up is a very good one. :) Happy reading!!:)

[morgavin]

Well I'm not glad to be telling this...kinda like showing how dumb you are.
Pepper and I, for a few days, were getting along just grand. She would come down from her perch, asked to be scratched, talk up a storm, and in general be very friendly. Well dummy here thought that since we were playing and being so friendly, that I stuck out my tongue at her like a little kid. PPPTTTTTHHHHH........I no longer have about 1/8 inch of my tongue.:doh: Pepper latched onto it and only let go when she sheared it off :eek: . Mouth bleeding profusely, I picked her up and locked her in the cage. "BAD BIRD" I told her several times. To be honest I wanted to see how far my foot could make her fly. I refrained and only told her bad bird. The worst part was after she removed the end of my tongue, she ran around the floor laughing hysterically.:roflmao2:Needless to say, I have a hard time trusting her to even play with her. Its like she knows exactly what she is doing and waits to ambush me. I'm starting to second guess my decision to adopt her.

[Jean]

I feel sorry you got such a bad bite.To begin with, it sounds like you are laying yourself wide open for the face or tongue bite. I would say you need to earn his / her trust other then using your face or mouth. Stop to think, if you were the bird and your master came at you with a big head, what would you do? I'd have to know a bird inside out and up side down before I would allow that kind of facial contact. I am glad you gave it a second thought and did no revert to an anger outburst. It can take a year or several years to earn absolute trust from a second hand bird, especially one that has been abused sometime in it's past. Hopefully, you can find better ways to interact with Pepper. You did not mention if he was on his cage or what led up to this incident. That can often give pointers as to why this happened. When I've been bit I can say it could of been prevented if I'd of done this or that. Good luck, I hope you can work through these issues with Pepper.

[Shirley]

Well, Neil, I'm very sorry, really sorry. But I must say, I've only done that with my Bourke's, and every time, they nibble, taste, etc my tongue. Before you do anything with a wild animal, which all these birds are, they are not domesticated, ask yourself this: "What's the worst thing that can happen if I do this? Oh, yeah, my tongue can be bit really hard. Maybe I better not stick it out." How inviting to bite it, or taste it. What is the bird thinking when it's stuck in his face? "Hmmm. He must want me to do something with that, and I'm not even going to taste the nasty thing, so I guess I'll bite it!" Well, actually, I have no clue what he was thinking... but it's sort of like sticking your hindside in a donkey's face. I truly am sorry... please be careful... Holly my grey loves me to pieces, but gosh, she's a wild animal, and I could put her trust back 25 yrs with one wrong reaction to her wild instincts! I could also lose my eyeball with a little lack of .... well, you know.

Be glad it was you and not someone else... talk about a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Now, let's get serious. He knows darn well he got a rise out of you. Be EXTREMELY careful and DON'T let him bite you again no matter what. It is NOT worth it! Use positive reinforcement. Spend 5 minutes 2 x a day with him doing positive reinforcement with good behaviors, then back in his cage. No opportunity for bad behaviors.

Here's an email from my avian vet today, by the way, about a cockatoo she is working with:


"First of all, a day or two of clicker training and no more bites!"

I have some basic very short clicker training mpg movie clips online.... if you have hi-speed Internet, go there and watch them. NOW is the time to start doing something, and this is worth it. I learned it from my vet, who uses Melinda Johnson's book and other c/t techniques, as do I.

http://www.thebirdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249

Let me know if you are interested in this method... believe me it works... but it's not the only way. It's just the fastest way I know.

~ Shirley :)

[morgavin]

thnx,
Like I said "dumb" we were playing and were face to face bobbing back and forth, laughing, talking and I didn't think.....I don't blame the bird, I blame my enthusiasum and lack of consideration for what could happen. I have been doing well since. Rewards for doing good and everything with caution. I need more patience. I/m headed to the thread posted by Shirley and believe me any help to form a good relationdhip with Pepper is gr8tly appreciated.

[Jean]

Neil, It makes me glad to hear you are willing to learn all you can to be a good parrot dad. Just remember, we've have all made mistakes with our birds and are grateful there are many here that can help each other from making more of them. I've been educating myself about parrots for over 11 years and I continue to learn. There are some here have double my experience.

[morgavin]

watched the movies, got the clicker, working..... no bites since and keeping it that way (I hope). Pepper is again being easy to handle and seems excited when I get home from work. I knock before I come in just to hear her bark. There was a rotwiller(spl) where she lived and she barks. I found she doesn't have a large vocabulary, so I record on the computer and let it play while I'm gone. I do this for two reasons 1) she hears MY voice and 2) hopefully she will increase her vocabulary. Spray her every day for a bath ( not doing the shower thing again 'till more trust) to help keep her clean. The feather thing is down to just regular down feathers and no large feathers for a while. She seems to be adjusting and really likes dinner time. Sings and carries on knowing I will be sharing with her. Thanks for all of the advice and help.....project back on track ....:cool:

[Jean]

I am glad to hear about your progress together. Shirley has had wonderful success with her clicker training. I am glad she mentioned it to you and you have found one and it is helping.

Thanks, for keeping us posted on how she is doing. "Good Luck"

[Shirley]

http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/BF/em/congrats100.jpg

If you lived in the neighborhood, I'd bring you home-made cookies!!!

Very good news on your progress!! :D

[morgavin]

:rofl: Shirley,

would :heart: the cookies...baking isn't my thing and homemede sounds soooo good. :thanx: for helping, you and everyone here at the forum. I don't post all the time , but I'm here almost everyday reading the post and trying to b a good "dad". I remember my orange wing 20+ yrs ago and the times we enjoyed. Never had her cage closed,never had wings clipped, took my friend almost everywhere and she never flew away. The bond was so tight once when I went outside to get the paper.... I bent over to pick it up right when she was going to land on my shoulder...... :eek: ... she just kept flying and ended 60 ft up in about a 100ft evergreen. She was crying out and so I went up the tree I thought she was in and opps the next tree over. So I called to her and she walked across the limbs and onto my shoulder, staying there while I climbed down and went into the house. She was talking and sceeching the whole way as to scold me for ducking and leaving her no place to land. I wouldn't think of doing this with a bird that there wasn't a strong tie with. The love and trust was mutually felt and understood. I hope in time that I can achieve something close to this with my adopted friend. I don't think I'll ever b able to not clip her wings and give her freedom to that extreme. Caged when gone, and watched at all times when out. A ton of attention when home and the best care I can, mix with patience and time we WILL be buds :agree:

[Shirley]

AWESOME!! I'll dble the recipe! :funny:

Post more pics of your new buddy!!

[Majj]

WOW !! took me for ever to get through these posts ...
How wonderful you have come so far with Pepper ..Love to see some more photos

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v373/Maj/Gifs%20and%20siggys/AmazonRockinghorse.gif

[Jean]

Neil, I am so glad to hear how well things are going with the two of you. :grouphug: Good thing you are in good enough shape to climb trees. What a love story!


I'll even kick in a batch of homemade cookies!! If you are like my hubby it would be chocolate chip with nuts.

:thanx: for keeping us posted.:heart:

[morgavin]

:shrug: Well things were going well. I'm at a loss. Getting ready to work with Pepper (clicker) last nite and as I went to pick her up.....CHOMP....:eek: Just when I think we are progressing she bites. No warning, no reason. I put her in the cage with a branch ( bloody finger not ready for another bite) and I covered her cage. I don't think she likes that, but it was like putting her on restriction. I don't know if I should do that. I've never had sooo much trouble, doubt, and be so unsure as to how I can earn her trust. Is this behavior actions of a disturbed bird? What do I do? I want so much for her to not have to go to another person and go through the change again and I really like having her except for the unpredictable attacks.

[morgavin]

Reading @ polite parrot "Judy" tells of signs that a bird shows that you might be bitten. That's what is so confusing. Pepper shows no outward sign she is going to bite. She acts just the same when getting up on my finger. I always use up when about to pick her up so she knows what I want and no surprises. I'm soo disappointed and confused.....

[Jean]

Neil, try not to get discouraged. I have found not all birds show a body language that warns you they are going to bite. It's true that some will show a body language that allows you to detect a bite is coming. What works for some birds does not always work for all birds.

It may take longer for her to come around. No telling what she has had to encounter in her past. Amazons are known to be a very intelligent species that can have a mind of their own, it will be crucial for you to keep on trying to establish that trusting bond with her. I have seen some that have been abused come around in time with a lot of devotion and working together. Once a bird has lost faith and trust in someone that they loved it takes a lot to undue that fear when in a new home. She has been to several homes in a short while and needs time to find security in you. I'd like to ask you a few questions. Her actions have to be from fear, irritability, distrust. or not feeling well. or all I mentioned. There are many factors that can attribute to this. Knowing her past insecurity sheds a lot of light on her problems, that tells me it is going to take a lot of trust building to bring her around. She was not born this way, unkind humans most likely made her this way. It sounds to me like she has a fear of letting her guard down.

(1) Does she have a play top on her cage or a play tree she spends time out of her cage on?

(2) Does she not want to come out of her cage when you want her to.

(3) Will she come out if you open the door and let her come out on her own?

(4) Is it any easier to get her to step up out of the cage?

(4) How is she about playing with toys?

(5) How is she about accepting treats from you?

(6) is there any way you can find out about her past, did she loose a loved one before she was shifted home to home ?

[Jean]

Neil, you may also want to invest in some cheap cotton gloves that would help the bites. Usually a light pair of gardening ones will not frighten them as much as some of the dark or bright colored ones. That may also take some time to acquaint her with.

[morgavin]

[QUOTE=Neil]1) yes a play top 2)most times she won't come out when asked, but occasionally she will, so I started to just close the door and try later 3)when she wants to not always right away and goes back in at times 4) doesn't seem interested no matter what I give her. There are several in the cage and some I put in and take out 5) accepts them without hesitation, but I usually make her earn them by sucessfully learning or doing what I ask and then.....click 6)from what I understand, came from home with 12+ birds then to two bird home and lots of ppl dogs activity then here single no other pets (reef tank doesn't count) and alone during the day. no loss, just too many to handle at the original owner. Was told she didn't like men, she really reacts well when female neighbor visits. The neighbor can do anything to Pepper. Lift wings, handle just about any way she wants and no problem....jealous of that:shrug:[QUOTE]

" Bingo " She has most likely been abused by a man somewhere in her past. A slim chance she had never been handled by a man.

I suggest you try to speak as soft to her as you can. Try as gentle a movements with her as possible. When a bird has been handled by a woman they feel intimidated and frightend by man's mannerism and fear what ever has frightened them in the past.

At this point, my guess would be it is going to take her a longer time to trust you. I can not help but think there is no immediate quick fix however, I think the clicker training could be a plus and may help your relationship along faster. By all means, you need to continue to shown her you love her and want to be her friend. She is putting you to a task, not because she wants to but because she can not help it out of fright or insecurity.

Have you ever taken her to your bed to play with you and a toy she likes? That is sometimes a good natural place for playtime.

[morgavin]

Looking at all the post so far I've begun to wonder if the first owners hubby may have not been the best with this bird. I don't know them personally, but with her reactions to any female VS any male.....hummm

[Jean]

I'd say your assessment is correct! You are the one who has to prove to her you are really a good guy...

[morgavin]

Well continuing to work @ it.... Pepper is going high tech...architectural rule and computer...now that's smart. She just had her bath and she's a little wet...as u can see :roflmao2:

[Shirley]

AWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww! :wub:

A 10 for adorableness on the 2nd photo!!

[Jean]

Awwwww, she's adorable. :heart: I also, love the second pic where she wants your kind scritches.:wub:

[morgavin]

:emot-danc as you can see I'm hard at work with Pepper. I devoted almost the whole day to her and the results are what you see in pic 2. I think if I can devote at least 2-3 hrs a day to nothing but working with her I'll get where we are true friends. Today is another full day for her. I'm not going to let her do anything but work with me. SHopping for new toys tomorrow, she doesn't play with any we have now. The troubling part is we have been here (pic 2) and then the unexpected hard bite. Patience, patience, patience......

[Jean]

It sounds like you are on the right path. :beerchug: Keep up the good work!!!

[morgavin]

:emot-danc YaHoooo worked with Pepper many hrs today... Something just happened that I couldn't wait to post... I was putting new laces on my work boots, sitting in a chair next to the cage so I could talk to her and let her watch. She seamed interested so I moved a little closer. She climbed down the cage, on to the arm of the chair and then on my arm!!!!!! :woot: Then she bent her head down and asked for skritches. I was able to pet her head, wings, under her neck!!! YES!!!!
I'm so excited and I wanted to share this with all of you. Daddy has a big smile....and no bloody fingers LOL:beerchug:

[Shirley]

Neil, that's excellent! What wonderful news! And I totally understand your excitement! Thanks for sharing and keep it up!

More pics now please!!

Sleep well,
Shirley :dance: :wavey:

[Jean]

:emot-danc YaHoooo worked with Pepper many hrs today... Something just happened that I couldn't wait to post... I was putting new laces on my work boots, sitting in a chair next to the cage so I could talk to her and let her watch. She seamed interested so I moved a little closer. She climbed down the cage, on to the arm of the chair and then on my arm!!!!!! :woot: Then she bent her head down and asked for skritches. I was able to pet her head, wings, under her neck!!! YES!!!!
I'm so excited and I wanted to share this with all of you. Daddy has a big smile....and no bloody fingers LOL:beerchug:



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/jeanaskins/graphics/01congratrulations.gif
I am so happy you share your progress with Pepper. :heart: I know, she has made your day.:wub: It looks like someday she and you will be a great team.:beerchug: :clap: :beerchug:

[morgavin]

:thumbup: Things have definately taken a turn for the good. When I can home today and opened her cage...right out and no problem picking her up... then pet me please.....:highfive: Looks like I should start a good progress thread and let this one go

[Majj]

Yep new thread please ..GREAT news:goodjob: ..fingers crossed its a turning point...:beerchug: Cheers:wavey:

[Jean]

Niel, it sounds like you have crossed a big hurdle.:dance: Keep up the good work and keep us posted.

It may be a good idea to start that new thread with a happy amazon title. :dance: :heart: :dance:

[Junkzoo]

Great to hear of the positive progress!:highfive: :dance:

[Jean]

Informative thread brought forward...