Hubby and the puppy

[SadennaAndFlock]

she has grown so much since we got her on memorial weekend..she gets her second set of shots on thursday then we are going to check out some obediance classes and see which one we like and then maggie is going to go to puppy kindergarten..We have been working on the basics here at home Sit, stay, lay down, Leave it and of course she has figured out what No means..lol

We have not introduced her to the birds yet and have been waiting to get her through some obediance classes yet and will ease into socializing her with the birds..With her being part Rottie they are working dogs and can be very active and focused but all the things I have read about training and raising rotties they do well in home with non-canine animals as long as they are socialized with them and raised around them from a puppy...When looking at this mixed breed I had read some about rotties quite a while ago as we had been looking at purebreds but I also wanted to make sure if we went for a mix I knew what we would be getting into with the breed, I grew up around black labs so they are very familiar to me but had to educate myself on Rotties as well as talk to others who have raised Rotties...we also bought a magazine that is specifical for training and working with Rotties

Anyway here is our small horse with my husband took this picture the other night when she crawled up in the chair with him.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/sadenna/Dogs/donmaggie.jpg

[Jean]

OMG, that doesn't even look like the same puppy. Her face is so pretty and her expression is adorable.:heart:

It's good you are teaching her now from the beginning. Good luck with the rest of her training.

[SadennaAndFlock]

with as big as she is going to get, there is no way I am going to have an unruly, obnoxious, unsocialized 80 pound dog and we knew ever since we started talking about a larger dog that training was going to be ASAP and she is going to have to be really worked with. Our smaller dogs are easier to deal with all it takes with them is a dirty look or a firm word and they know and step back inline..but with a larger dog like maggie not only verbal correction but physical as well which is a slight tug on the leash or I have to pull her away from the situation by her collar tell her no or leave and make her go into a sit or lay position...There are so many training books out there that talk about not using any physical force on the dog but you know in a dog pack there is alot of physical reprimanding and correction either from a alpha pack leader to a non alpha dog or a mother to her pups...Hubby and I started watching the dog whisperer and alot of his methods and training make sense you see more behaviour problems in dogs when they are treated like humans than if you treated them like a pack...it's not harsh but dog psychology. Since having maggie we have had to feed everyone seperately since she needs her puppy food so we swtiched everyone to schedule feedings instead fo the free feeding they had access to all day long and we have been working on making ourselves more asservtive pack leaders so to speak..as Cesar Milan The dog Whisperer would say Calm Assertive Pack leader....even all the things I have read on training rotts talks about physical correction, nothing thats going to hurt them but lets them know you are the alpha one in charge not them.

looking at when you posted you must be a night owl, me to somedays and right now it's just way to hot to even try and sleep which is not good as I have to get up at 8am....

[Brandy]

awwwwwww,,,,she could just melt your heart

she is beautiful

[Junkzoo]

What a cutie! And growing like a weed i see!:agree:
I could not agree with you more, about getting the pup trained, as not to be a handful in the future, just wish you were closer and my cousin(dog trainer) could have worked with you and the pup since he's done wonders with those canines he's trained.
BTW: If you can, go to a place that does one on one training , vs. the group sessions for training , IMO you wil be better off for it. JMO,i feel that group training classes are not all that good for training a dog, although socialization is prob one thing that will come from a group session,but you can do that at almost any public place,,park, etc, anywhere where people /pets are at.( i prefer to call those group training sessions,,,ummmm "behind" sniffing classes,,at best LOL) Try to find a place that does one on one ,personalized training, and you will get the most bang for your training dollar. A large portion of the customers my cousin gets, are ones that have gone to group sessions, or from a place that deemed the dog, "untrainable" ,or "unsociable", and most times the owner's jaws drop when they see how fast and well the dog takes to training w/ my cousin,,He jokingly tells customers to come to him first, and save themselves loads of money,,
I'd avoid any training regime that uses food/treats as a "reward" for good obedience response,,,:scratchch what happens when you have no treats to reward,,,the dog will learn that he/she does not have to do anything for you, if no yummies are provided,,,,
With a good trainer getting a good base of training down with your pup, you will notice that the dog will actually enjoy future training sessions with you, looking forward to doing things for you, simply because that makes you happy, and in reality that is all they want to do for you, being "alpha dog" to them,is to make you happy in their action.
(My German Shepherds go bonkers:nuts: :emot-danc when i bring out the leash /collar , they love to go thru the motions with me, and seem to want me to throw in something different while i'm doing a walk/heel with them, ( a quick turn out of the norm, to throw them off, )and can almost see a "bring it on Dad, i'm ready/make me think" look to them. It's a joy to have a dog that loves a leash,or to go thru the obedience "motions" with a owner, instead of a dog that you have to fight with to put a collar on, and get tugged around by them during a walk.
when you can walk with your dog, and have slack on the leash, and your dog is right there at your side, following you when you turn,and sit when you stop,,,w/ no command,,,it's a great feeling to experience.

Sorry to ramble about things like this, but those that know me, are aware that this is one of my passions, and will prob go on forever when a thread like this comes around LOL.

Find a good trainer, and learn what you can from them, and you will likely have a great , enjoyable time with your pup!:agree:

[parrotgirl]

She is beautiful, and boy has she grown, obediance training is a great idea, especially for the larger dogs, Hubby looks well taken with her. Shes a real beauty. Let us know how the training goes. :heart:

[SadennaAndFlock]

What a cutie! And growing like a weed i see!:agree:
I could not agree with you more, about getting the pup trained, as not to be a handful in the future, just wish you were closer and my cousin(dog trainer) could have worked with you and the pup since he's done wonders with those canines he's trained.
BTW: If you can, go to a place that does one on one training , vs. the group sessions for training , IMO you wil be better off for it. JMO,i feel that group training classes are not all that good for training a dog, although socialization is prob one thing that will come from a group session,but you can do that at almost any public place,,park, etc, anywhere where people /pets are at.( i prefer to call those group training sessions,,,ummmm "behind" sniffing classes,,at best LOL) Try to find a place that does one on one ,personalized training, and you will get the most bang for your training dollar. A large portion of the customers my cousin gets, are ones that have gone to group sessions, or from a place that deemed the dog, "untrainable" ,or "unsociable", and most times the owner's jaws drop when they see how fast and well the dog takes to training w/ my cousin,,He jokingly tells customers to come to him first, and save themselves loads of money,,
I'd avoid any training regime that uses food/treats as a "reward" for good obedience response,,,:scratchch what happens when you have no treats to reward,,,the dog will learn that he/she does not have to do anything for you, if no yummies are provided,,,,
With a good trainer getting a good base of training down with your pup, you will notice that the dog will actually enjoy future training sessions with you, looking forward to doing things for you, simply because that makes you happy, and in reality that is all they want to do for you, being "alpha dog" to them,is to make you happy in their action.
(My German Shepherds go bonkers:nuts: :emot-danc when i bring out the leash /collar , they love to go thru the motions with me, and seem to want me to throw in something different while i'm doing a walk/heel with them, ( a quick turn out of the norm, to throw them off, )and can almost see a "bring it on Dad, i'm ready/make me think" look to them. It's a joy to have a dog that loves a leash,or to go thru the obedience "motions" with a owner, instead of a dog that you have to fight with to put a collar on, and get tugged around by them during a walk.
when you can walk with your dog, and have slack on the leash, and your dog is right there at your side, following you when you turn,and sit when you stop,,,w/ no command,,,it's a great feeling to experience.

Sorry to ramble about things like this, but those that know me, are aware that this is one of my passions, and will prob go on forever when a thread like this comes around LOL.

Find a good trainer, and learn what you can from them, and you will likely have a great , enjoyable time with your pup!:agree:







She does great on a leash we are still in the process of she gets going good and walking along just fine and then stops and sits and won't budge I don't pull or tug on her I walk back to her get her back into a standing position and say come and get her moving again..the only correction with a slight tug nothing serious basically all it is a distraction to get her back focused on me or hubbyit's like tapping someone on the shoulder to get their attention is the best way to describe no real physical forch just using your pointer finger to kind of pull the leash a little and it works.. sometimes I use treats, sometimes I don't so she is not getting treats all the time, we are also in the process of introducing the clicker to her. We don't have many legititmate reputable dog trainers around here that are more for the one on one so they are harder to find and when you do find one it costs and arm and a leg to do private sesssions plus they want to come to your home and I am not really comfortable with that. We have two Training places near us that that is all they do it's not petco or petsmart these places are more serious and thats all they focus on is training from puppy kindergarten, to going beyond the basics and one teachs agility, and how to work a dog for obeidance competitions, fly ball you name it they do it all. and the classes have no more than 10 dogs in a class at least for puppy kindergarten and I have been told very good things about this one place in particular so we are going to go sit in on a class and check it out ourselves..

[Griminsdj]

Maggie is adorable, she'll ba 80 pound lap dog for sure! LOL

I like watching Cesar Milan-the Dog Whisperer. Alot of what he says makes sense to me (never having owned a dog myself , just working as a vet tech).
My friend just got a St, Bernard puppy, it's headed to disaster...originally they had a bichon, but it got nippy with her 3 yo adn the daycare kids so they rehomed it with an older woman, (wrong breed choice for kids) they have a hound mix (wrongf choice for those whohjave no trainign experience), but he's wild, leashed out back most of the time, too unruly for anyone to walk on the leash:rolleyes: So they went and got a St. bernard puppy,:doh: the dog does somethign adn she scolds it by pointign her finger at it adn talkign in a high pitched voice, so the puppy thinks she's playign a game and tries to nip her finger, or now he comes in the hosue after playign outside and charges at my friend and barks and her big loud bark starteles my friend and she jumps and lets out a scream herself, so now this is a REALLY fun game "I can make mom yelp! Look who's Boss now!" I told her she has to stoprewardign the barks with her reactions and she needs to find her authoratative toned of voice (which btw she doesn't have with the kids after 13 years of beign a paretn adn a good 8 years of being a daycare provider- and they run all over her too) Hopefully she follwos through on the puppy classes, they are taugth by Cornell college out here so they should be decent).

It's really nice to see someone who takes the time to educate themselves about raising their puppy into a well behaved dog!

[SadennaAndFlock]

He does make alot of sense when he is working with dogs and explaining why they do and act certain ways..they want to be treated like dogs, treating them like people confuses them. The more I watched him the more he started to make sense, I got the whole first season on DVD for my birthday, watching him work with dogs is amazing no harsh treatment and for some reason dogs tend to respect he just projects that kind of energy...I love watching him with his pack at the center can you just imagine hiking up in the hills and see him coming towards with like 30 dogs and they are all under control I look forward to season 3.

[Griminsdj]

He does make alot of sense when he is working with dogs and explaining why they do and act certain ways..they want to be treated like dogs, treating them like people confuses them. The more I watched him the more he started to make sense, I got the whole first season on DVD for my birthday, watching him work with dogs is amazing no harsh treatment and for some reason dogs tend to respect he just projects that kind of energy...I love watching him with his pack at the center can you just imagine hiking up in the hills and see him coming towards with like 30 dogs and they are all under control I look forward to season 3.

He's out on DVD? Oh that is just too cool! The part about being treated like a dog, and treating them like a human confuses them is great. I alwyas liek the episodes withteh little 5 pound terrors that are runnign their owners lives, lol. I also liek any worke he does when he brings dogs into his pack to re-train them. Very interesting.

[Jim]

Sadenna, Maggie is adorable. Love the photo.:heart:

I have to say this... well I guess I don't "Have to" but I want to. Caesar Milan is good, no doubt about that, and uses - IMO - Traditional Training. Personally, this is just me, we all choose our own path, but I see him as using a lot of punishment and flooding. I always remember the one where the dog chases/fears the skate boards so he held the dog in place while the kids rode back and forth. Again personal choice but I just couldn't do that to a dog or any animal. I'd like to see that method used on a large animal or another human that he couldn't control/restrain with a lead and be dominant over then.

This may be of interest to anyone looking for less intrusive methods of training. There are 5 links, I like then all, and are worth the read IMO.

Operant versus Traditional Training (http://www.behavior.org/animals/animals_operant.cfm)

Maybe this would be a good discussion in Understanding Parrot Behavior.:shrug2: :agree: :)

---

Please follow this thread at Training Methods (http://www.thebirdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=39633#post39633)

[SadennaAndFlock]

yes I remember that episode he has used thatmethod on larger dogs Rotties, Danes etc. we humans do the same thing to conquor our own fears we face them I believe that episode had an english bulldog a breed that can be very fixated on things and very stong in pysical stature if have no control over them at all your at a loss...bascially if you coddle the dog when they are in that state of excitement or fear then they think it's ok the last thing you want is a dog thats afraid of things it's going to see everyday or think it's ok to chase it when you take them out, and restraining him at the same time so he can't chase the skate board and correcting him when he even give glances or shows any interest in the skate board is a method that works. Personally for me I see nothing wrong with his methods and they make more sense to me than other methods I have read about but thats just me. but each dog is different in his book he has only been around two dogs he could not work with and were beyond help very far into Red Zone as he calls it.

[Jim]

Hi Saddena and all

I hope in my attempts at expressing myself about behavior I haven't given the impression that cuddling an animal (rewarding) inappropriate behavior is what I do or suggest.

I'm not saying his methods don't work, they most certainly do and work fast. We or animals learn very quickly that if we do not do what the person in charge wants, that person can *make* us do what they want by their shear power of us.

Lets look at it from a human stand point. Keep in mind behavior is behavior across all species, it's based on experience.

I do not like snakes and spiders, will avoid them and may even chase them off with a club/stick. I don't have a bite like a dog to make them go away so I use a stick. Trainer A restrains me and allows the snakes/spiders in my space until I *get over* my fear. WOW! I know I would be stressed out to the max. Will I get over it? Maybe... will I trust trainer A later or will I comply out of fear of being restrained? I know for me I would not trust him and if I did come to him in a fearful situation it would be to avoid being *forced*.

Trainer B takes small steps to help me over come my fear by rewarding little steps of being closer to the snakes/spiders. Never *forcing*, only rewarding my little steps towards the goal of over coming my fear. I would trust trainer B in further fearful situation and probably like it that he helps me in a positive way. I may have fears, but not fears of trainer B.

Not being argumentive here, trying to explain the differences in training methods.

[Griminsdj]

Jim I think there is a huge difference in the type of training you would want to pick for different types of animals and are appropriate for different types of animals. What's appropriate for a dog would not be appropriate for cat or parrot. And no matter what kind of training you use it needs to be respectful and not physically abusive.


Dogs are pack animals with a defined social structure, even though we have domesticated them..they still hold true to alot of their ancestrial wild ways. Dogs respond to structure and to dominance. I am not saying you have to beat your dog silly in order for him to see you as alpha leader...but they do need to know that you are the alpha leader or they will take advantage of what they percieve as your "weakness". Just as when you are riding a horse, it takes very little tension on a lead to teach a dog what you want it to do. THis tension on the lead is not to be confused with when people have a dog they have never taugth to walk on a leash and it's pulling wildly at the leash and then they use full force to jerk the dog off teh ground and back...that jerkign doesn't teach teh dog anything because it's attention getting for all of about 5 seconds and then it's right back to a human who doesn't know how to walk a dog on a leash. I'm a small person, 5 feet, and back when I was working with dogs on a daily basis I was a constant 98 pounds... so a large number of the dogs I handled weighed as much as me if not more, and it doesn't take alot of physical strength to control a large dog, especially one that was well trained...it takes the right attitude, and minimal tension on a correctly held lead. Only once was I dragged off my feet by a Great Dane who did not want part in a rectal exam, and that happened my first week before I had the training. As with most pet problems, the problems start with the owners...not teaching your pet where it fits into the structure of your family, not giving it bounderies and direction, you enable it to develope bad habits.


Back when I was a vet tech we had a family, a married couple in their 50s or 60s, with an old English bulldog. This bulldog took over and ruled their lives. It was originally their sons dog and somehow they ended up with him. The dog decided that the laundry room was his. So here this couple , living in a very nice expensive home with a beautiful laundry room had to take their clothes out to the laundrymat because the dog would "not let them into the laundry room." Then the lady purchased a new love seat, well teh dog decided that now the new loveseat was his..so teh people think "Well I'm not happy he's taken my new expensive loveseat but at least we dont' have ot waste money doign laundry at the laundry mat anymore." That lasted about a month until the dog discovered them in his laundry room and decided that they were no longer to use his laundry room OR his loveseat. He was known to snap when he thought you were exceeding your bounderies he placed on you as alpha dog. He had a red flagged chart at the vet clinic. They called to have his nails trimmed. I said sure come on in! I met them in the lobby with clippers. It wasn't policy to pull charts for free nail clippings so I didn't knwo the dog and was not aware of his aggressive behavior. I got down on the floor took his feet adn clipped his toenails, with no muzzle, ruffled his wrinkly face and planted a kiss on him for beign a good dog, before the owners could say "Wow...your good...I can't beleive you didn't take him in back and muzzle him! Usually it takes two people." It was only after the vet walked in and recognized the dog that I was alerted to his aggressive nature. He allowed me to do it because I was confident and unafraid, because I was confident and unafraid yet nice and not a meancing threat. He took over his home becasue he knew his owners were push overs and fearful. But no one was really happy because they couldn't enjoy their home or their pet and their pet was not getting the structure it needed to be balanced. The bulldog didn't have an aggression problem, it had a confusion over who ran the home.

As far as trusting the trainer, trust in the trainer comes when the dog realizes it no longer needs to fight continually to be alpha dog, where it is taught it's position in the family as part of the pack but not leader of the pack. Trust comes when the dog is taught that certain behaviors have certain consequences reliably and without fail, whether that means that tension on the lead when they are not heeling properly or a being given a food treat for a trick. Trust comes from a schedule knowing that all it's needs will be met without fail, and that it will be treated fairly. And by fairly, I'm saying not jerking the dog off it's feet while on leash, not hitting it..anywhere in teh head, rump, snout, yelling at it to shut up because it's barking, not using it as a fashion accessory and not allowing it to be a dog and creatign 5 pound mini terrors...I'm saying you treat it with respect, you can create dominance without physically overpowering the dog.


None of Ceasar Milan's training techniques would be appropriate for a child, cat, a snake or a parrot..they are different types of beings and require different types of handling.

[Jim]

Hi Kelly.

Kelly wrote:
And no matter what kind of training you use it needs to be respectful and not physically abusive.

What I have seen for one out of many examples. In one of his shows he holds a Chawawa (sp?) tightly and even gets a good nip/bite, because the dog doesn't want anyone to sit on the couch with the dogs chosen person (the lady). If this isn't physical, and I'll say abusive since the dog is trying to get away and bites him, I sure would like to see documentation or hear clarification to the contrary.

Kelly let me say this, I truly enjoy discussions with you, it's stimulating and reinforcing. Would you agree that we humans are the MOST dominating predators that walk the earth? Just because we can dominate doesn't mean it is the best way. Just because we can throw a paper wad harder than a child/adult doesn't mean we have to use that method, or any force for that matter, to get then to stop. Granted, one good ole hard hit with a paper wad would make a lasting impression. What I think that teaches (to any subject) is, if some one hits me with a paper wad I'll throw it harder to make them stop.

"Monkey see monkey do" and you know we're apes with car keys.... right?:eek: :rofl: Had to bring a little humor into this.:D No offense meant to anyone's moral or religious believes.

Kelly wrote:
I'm saying you treat it with respect, you can create dominance without physically overpowering the dog.

Agreed 100%!!! What I see is him overpowering the dog to get the behavior.

Think about this, since we're on the 'they need to be dominated or know you're the alpha'. How or who does the adult alpha dog learn from in the wild since you brought up the wild instincts? I think they learn on their own by experience where the safe or trusted place or being is and what to avoid because it will bring them harm. (harm as they perceive it) So if we are part of the *good thing* environment, they will seek out that good thing and if it is a good enough *good thing* will change old habits/ways.

I don't see the need to be the alpha or the beta, just part of their life/environment as a *good thing*.

Don't forget, I like discussions, we all learn and I think I'm learning the most because you and others bring up good points and ask such good questions, I have to really dig to see if I think I'm correct or have a valid point.

[Jim]

Me again.:doh: :D OK I had a light bulb moment after watching the fireworks. Clicker training or positive reinforcement are proven methods from the rat, to the chicken, to the... long list here... to the tiger (more aggressive and dominance orientated than a domestic dog) to the killer whale...

Why are dogs so different that they need a different form of training?

[parrotgirl]

My two cents here, Both my dogs know me as the Alpha leader, I have never hit, screamed or thrown any thing at them. I am not a dog trainer, so they are not trained to a high standard, just what I think is appropriate for my home. They have been clicker trained since I got them and it has worked out fine, If I was to scream at them to sit, they would probably totally ignore me, as would I if someone were to scream at me. I think respect goes a long way, with any animal. I respect them they respect me. (I hope lol)

[Ellen K. Cook, DVM]

Hi all,


This would make a good discussion on the Behavior Forum-great input, everyone! As a small animal DVM with 30+ years of practical experience and a special interest in behavioral counseling for dog, cat and parrot behaviors, I have used all the methods being discussed. For many years, we had Danes, but have now downsized to a Rottie and a Chihuahua (both rescues). With age and experience, comes wisdom- I hope :shrug2:

Just as knowledge in medicine advances by leaps and bounds, so does learning about behavior. Positive reinforcement has changed the way I practice and the way I live my life. 90% of my patients love to come see me and happily submit to any number of indignities to receive their reward (catnip for cats, liver or peanut butter for dogs, millet,seed, nuts for parrots, and of course, lavish verbal praise and petting for all). I have to leave the room before some of my Lab patients (they are soooo food-oriented) will get off the exam table because they know as long as they stay there and I am around, something good will come their way :agree:

Now, how do I handle the other 10%? As positively as I can, given the limited time I have with them. Basically, I use chemical restraint (sedation) to minimize trauma for all concerned and do things in small steps. This is a topic in and of itself.

There are some differences in behavior and training, depending on the species, but basic priniciples are the same. This is why PR works for every animal. Again, species differences would be another good behavior discussion.


I recommend to anyone interested check out these links:

http://www.clickertraining.com/home/

http://www.dvmnews.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=144581

http://www.hilltopanimalhospital.com/dominance%20aggression1.htm


And this book I recommend to ALL my dog clients:

http://clickertraining.com/store/


Finally, no one training method is ideal for all animals; you must tailor the teaching to the individual. Keep an open mind and be on the look-out for new techniques.

And now I am off to finish my chores-Shirley and family (including Sammie the Giant Grey :wub: ) are coming over for a July 4 cookout this afternoon-rain or not! Wish you all could join us:beerchug: Happy Independence Day!

[Junkzoo]

Very good discussion on dog training,,,,

One thing that is true:

You get three dog trainers together,and the only thing they can agree on, is that two of them, are doing it wrong,,,,,,,:agree: :funny:

[Junkzoo]

Dr. C, have a great time at your cook out,,,we'll have to compare notes on Sammy,,, i bet he'll grow even more, when i visit Shirley and Steve (and Sammy) this Thurs morning,,,when i liberate their fish from the tank near the front door.

You know me,,,,i'm always taking in more pets,,,,,,,but that's what i do,,,and like to,,,,i'm the homegiver to those that need it,,,,,:wub:

[Junkzoo]

Christy the cat, will prob never fit that credo,,,,as much as she "loves" me LOL
I'd be a shredded mess b4 i pulled out of the driveway LOL:eek:

[SadennaAndFlock]

And if you watch dog packs in the wild the alpha is in charge and does not tolerate anything from the non domiant dogs in a pack to be told what is appropiate and what is not they use physical contact a nip, a pinch grabbed an being held down..I see it with my 3 dogs we have since the new puppy came our older dog all 30 pounds of him will knock magged down and actually hold her down by the scruff when he has enough of her nonsense or does not cooperate in how he wants which is for her to be the submissive dog she is learning her place in our pack at home the other day he had enough of her no nonsense and her bugging him he into turn knocked her down and sat on her and if she moved he growled after about 2 minutes she got up went up to him laid down in front of him in turn he licked on the head. She is seeing as the alpha dog between the 3 of them..now our lhasa is still working keeping her dominancy over the new puppy.

I saw nothing wrong with how he held the chihuaha little dogs develope attitudes and can be more aggressive than some of the larger dogs why because people cater to that state of mind...when someone has a tiny chihuauha and they are walking down teh street and come across a much larger dog I have seen many times the small dog as the aggressor and wanting to tear that larger dog apart where the larger dog wants to be friends...and what happens the dog is in a aggressive state of mind and thge first thing the owner does is pick up the dog and cuddle and baby it...so what do you have a small dog that was given re-enforcment for the wrong behaviour thats why so many little dogs are neurotic and thing they own everything with that chih his owners failed to give him structure and I have to agree dogs want to be treated like dogs not humans they do better and are more stable if that chih has been allowed to continue his behaviour family or friend would of gotten hurt bad you can hold a dog down with using alot of force you just have to know the correct way to do it, watching that episode all I saw was a dog that was not geting his way and did not like the fact Cesar was not allowing him to rule the situation and basically I feel that bite was part of tempertantrum.
He has never hit, beat or screamed at a dog most don't agree with his techniques but the more I watch his show and listen to him the more stuff makes sense and in reality alot of it is just common sense...we have tried some of his techiniques none of the holding down as we have not had to do that but some of his other techniques and they work and we have seen a major difference in our dogs and it is positive. He must be doing something right to be able to control a pack of dogs that he has and a good percent of them are your more dominant breed Rotties, Pits, Dobes etc and several were ones that were sentenced to death due to aggressive behaviours or the fact they were just allowed to be rule the household with no disipline or boundries. Alot of his technique is how he approachs the situation and the dog, calm & assertive ...

[Shirley]

I somehow missed this whole thread until today... Great discussion!

I've obedience trained many dogs... and trained a few horses... big differences in how I train each dog and each horse... and the birds are not handled even remotely the same approach as the dogs/horses, and the dogs/horses are approached differently from each other.

I've enjoyed every Ceasar Milan "Dog Whisperer" show I've seen... gentle, assertive, caring, makes himself very clear to the dog after understanding what is going on with the dog and his "pack". I see PR happening, too.

I dogsat at friend's house a VERY unruly unmanageable Welsh Corgi - three visits+ per day ... he was under a year old, maybe about 9-10 mos old. I had Troy video tape me training the dog EACH DAY for the six days, as I told my friends, "when you come home, I believe he will heal, sit, come, stay, lie down, go crate, and stop jumping on you". They were thrilled and gave me the go-ahead. He accomplished all of that and more... he was a willing learner and loved my visits... with over-cooked liver chunks in my pocket. I didn't use the clicker b/c I knew they wouldn't.

This dog used to run away if he could get out the door... taking them forever to "catch" him. He used to knock the petite 9-yr-old son flat and the mom laiden with groceries at the door was knocked about a bit ... he was a rather large Corgi. He would race all over the house when asked to go crate. The treat I used for training were overcooked liver squares. Throw a treat in the crate, tell him to go crate, he ran in there and happily laid down with his milkbone or liver chunks with that dog smile looking up at me and Troy. He waited at the door on leash, sitting, until I walked in first, then came when called. He did this off-leash as well. (steps leading up to the front door... imagine snow and ice and a dog dragging you down the steps) We practiced ringing the doorbell and trained him to sit at the carpet line to the foyer, giving whoever was at the door plenty space to walk in and not be jumped on. He stopped jumping on us. He sat while I walked 30 steps away, came when called, on the sidewalk off leash. He would stop coming 1/2-way to me and either sit or "down" by voice and hand signals, all this rewarded with voice every time and liver treat sometimes. Once he learned the behavior and commands and signals, the liver was used only once in awhile.

"Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor is a GREAT book to add to the list already provided by Dr. Cook.

All this was on tape b/c I wanted them to see what I was doing. I was mic'd with a wireless mic so they could hear how quietly I spoke to the dog. Never yelling.

They were thrilled with their new dog (whom they had taken through obedience classes as a young pup, btw, but she wanted her son to do the training, and alpha dog he is not... and didn't know how to be... so training w/her son as the trainer was a washout imo) They watched the video, loved it.

Did they keep up the training? No. Did they take me up on teaching them in an hour or so how to work with their dog? No. How is the dog today? Older, more settled, still pretty "wild and crazy", jumping on you, tugging the leash, not so good with recall... "his call" not "recall" when to come back when called.... haphazard on the commands and instructions... not consistent. Sigh. Oh well.

Now, Jeff and Dr. C know Sonja, our Schnauzer. Why is she so well-trained in some respects and so horrible in others? (Her recall is excellent if she gets loose outside our fence, she will "go to bed", she will leave the room, all sorts of things like that) She was 7 mos old when she met Steve... and within a few mos, I gave up on certain aspects of her training... b/c I had no cooperation from the rest of the "pack" and the person she saw as the new "alpha dog". And... she doesn't respond at all to his "yelling" at her to stop barking at the door, stop jumping up on someone coming in, etc. I can't retrain Steve, and so I can't get consistence with Sonja. But... our other Schnauzers before Sonja were well-behaved and had good manners. Before Sonja, I had Shepherds, Dobermans, and Quinn, our Great Pyrenees... now there's a breed that requires a completely different approach to training... PR training, but different kind of training. And there's a good reason why (certainly not b/c of aggression or size) ... another discussion. Quinn was 180 lbs of awesome DOG!

Yeah, we should copy this over to the behavior forum - you think?

[Shirley]

Occurred to me.. I should explain... I was mic'd with a wireless lapel mic that I use for grooms/speakers/etc. No wires dragging back to the video camera.

[Shirley]

This discussion is copied and being continued here, in the behavior forum:

http://www.thebirdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=40221#post40221

[Junkzoo]

Shirley, my sister recently got a Corgi , to add to her "zoo" for the kids,,,,and i can say that he is ,,,ummm, "full of energy" also,,,,some dogs are not suited for training in some aspects,,somewhat based on what breed they are,,and what they were originally bred for. My sis also has a Sheltie that did not read the books about them, since it does not follow the norm for these breeds of dogs,,:shrug2:

[jimleasure]

i used to have a welsh corgi, a beautiful tri-color:drool2: . she was a very good and intelligent dog, but with her herding instinct she needed a 'job' to do or she got bored and at times destructive. once i figured that out i had no problems with her. she and i lived happily together for the rest of her 20 years.


jim leasure

[Shirley]

Jim and Jeff -- I hear you loud and clear... I tried to steer my friends from getting a Corgi... she decorates her office all UK and thinks the Queen's dogs should be her breed...

Anyhow, they live in a housing subdivision like I do, there's no "job" for this dog... I didn't even bother to write about the woodwork, sheetrock, and furniture the pup chewed up! He's doing much better, but also 2 yrs older now... actually, I don't know how much better he's doing. I haven't seen him in months - we rarely have time to get together anymore, and then it's usually out somewhere, not at their house.

Your reasons on the training and what to train is what applies to the Great Pyrenees, too... fabulous dog that you don't want to alter with too much training...

When we left Louisiana, we brought Quinn with us of course, and then placed him with a 4-H sheep person to guard their large flock on many acres. They never lost another lamb to coyotes. In Louisiana, Quinn lived with us but outside 24/7 with our llamas. He LOVED the boys and the little kitten we found - allowed it to nurse on him...

[jimleasure]

shirley,



i too lived in a suburban area, not any sheep or cows that i knew of. but i would walk to a pond a couple of miles away that canada geese resided at. i would let her round them up 2-3 times a week, more or less on a scheduled routine that she got use to. let me add here that i didn't let her harm or even touch the geese, just let her basic herding instincts surface. at home i would have her collect objects, balls and bones and the such, and bring them to a specified area on command. and this all seemed to quiet the destructiveness, all the things you didn't mention i know of very well. just thought i throw this info in.

jim leasure