pine shavings

[Brandy]

I was wondering if Pine Shavings can be used in the bottom of cages??

Ive reading alot of sites that say Yes, then Im reading alot of sites that say No, so i called my breeder friend, she said yes, UNLESS the bird starts chewing ton them because the crop can become impacted, I called the Avian vet in Moncton(3 hrs from me) she also said yes they can be used , I called the Avian vet in Miramichi(2 hrs away from me) they said No absolutely not

but I need something, I am going absolutely crazy because Milabeana will NOT leave her newspapers in the bottom of her tray. she has LOADS of toys and paper to shread, even bamboo,,but No she wants the paper out of the tray., I cant keep up with the cleaning, she then poops and throws all of her fodd right onto the tray and its SO hard to clean and its staining the pull out tray,

What else can i do?

[Shirley]

Dr. C will give you an answer, but she JUST returned from a week of classes, and we've talked about this, so I'll share...

No. Don't go there. Unless you were to change them daily, they are a breeding ground for bacteria, it's hard to see his droppings on a daily basis, etc. The spores can float up to the bird...it's not just a matter of him stepping on them or picking them up with his beak. People will tell you they've used them for years w/o problems... but then others have spent $100's getting rid of infection... and it only takes once.

Do you not have a grill between the floor of his cage and the rest of his cage? All our cages have the grill inbetween, that slides out for cleaning... and keeps the birds from walking on their dirty newspapers.

[parrotgirl]

When I first got my little ones I used pine shavings, until my vet told me to stop straight away, even though I cleaned them daily, He said pretty much the same as Shirley has said.

[Brandy]

Shirley, yes we have the grate over top of the pull out tray but she can reach her beak through the grate and pull out the paper

i dont know what else to do :( its literally driving me insane, shes to the point that the minute I push her tray back in with clean paper, she reaches in and takes it all out

[Shirley]

Our grate is several inches above the floor... probably 7-8 inches above... all our parrot cages are built that way... I don't know what to say... :shrug2: :scratchch

[Jean]

Your tray must be closer then most to the grate for her to reach it.

Does she have paper to chew on somewhere in her cage? That may hep prevent her from going after that newspaper. I have to always keep some paper or cardboard in and on top the cage for chewing.

[Junkzoo]

Other than paper/newspaper., other forms of cage bottom material are:
walnut shells(ground up)
corn cob- said not to be all that safe, incase a bird can get to it, and ingest it,,,Not that i would recommend using this, but i'm gonna go on record and state that i've been using corn cob for many,many yrs(prob close to 20 ys) and knock on wood, have not had a problem from using it, but one of my birds, Sinbad, my 'Too, is pretty much the only one that(the way the cage is made, IE: the distance from the grate to the corncob)that can get to the corncob and the fact that he can and does root around thru the grate, ,,,and has had no problems in doing so far,,,
If you are in close proximity to a place that prints newpapers, you can sometimes buy the "roll ends" of the paper used for printing purposes,and use it for your cage bottom covering(no ink used on it yet),making it even safe probably if they chew on it/digest it. even tho i think they use a soy based ink nowadays,,,

[Shirley]

The main danger w/corn cob and walnut (and pine shavings, etc) is they allow bacteria to grow in them and that then floats upward to the bird... regarless whether they can reach it or not. Corn cob grows the bacteria much better than walnut since it's so absorbant and holds moisture.

Now Dr. C will be here eventually and straighten us all out on this...

[Brandy]

Shirley,,I thought the same thing was said about news paper?? I thought ALL cage liners are a risk for bacteria, thats why we should change liners everyday ??


Also her actual cage grate is several inches above the tray but its her playtop that the grate is basically right on top of the tray, the grate is about 2" above the bottom of the tray., if that makes any sense

she has ALL kinds of paper to chew, i even ball up newspaper, the exact stuff I use in the cage and leave it all over the place for her, and she couldnt be bothered with it, she has oodles of bamboo to shred, coco balls, munch balls, finger traps, pinatas,,etc.,,which she also chews once all of her paper is out of her tray,,lol

[Shirley]

True... but the beauty of the other substrates is one can just sift corncob or walnut with a litter spoon, leaving the "clean" corncob, etc behind. Then maybe dump the whole tray once a month or once every 6-8 weeks... not cool at all...

[Brandy]

YIKES,,,i dont think i could ever do that!!! cages get a THOUROUGH cage cleaning once a week here, everything completly taken apart, trays, grates, toys, dishes, etc and everything is given a good washen, everything is wiped down on a daily basis and water and food bowls are washed and rotated daily

[Ellen K. Cook, DVM]

I (and other avian DVM's I have known or heard speak at conferences) recommend newspaper ONLY for lining cages for 2 reasons:


1. You can tell so much about health by your bird's droppings (sounds like another article-Poopology 101 :D ), best observed on newspaper. I study Merlin and Shelby's cage papers every morning and evening.

2. Newspaper is relatively sterile. Bacteria and fungi WILL grow in walnut shells, corncobs, kitty litter, pine shavings etc. unless it is totally changed out every day. Many people use these things for years and do not have problems, but it is a very real and significant risk for disease, so I urge everyone to use newspaper. One expert I heard speak called other cage substrates "death in a bag". :eek:

[morgavin]

Well I'll throw my 2c in. I use a plastic lined 15# brown paper. Its much like your old butcher paper but it isn't bleached. I can't agree more about the newspaper and the other comments on substrate. Jeff, about the ink. One of my customers is Flint Group., the wolds largest maker of commercial inks. Most of the web inks (newspapers) are still petrol based (cheap), but yes more and more are running soy. It just depends on the quality of the print and the process. Newspapers have to be cheap.

[parrotgirl]

YIKES,,,i dont think i could ever do that!!! cages get a THOUROUGH cage cleaning once a week here, everything completly taken apart, trays, grates, toys, dishes, etc and everything is given a good washen, everything is wiped down on a daily basis and water and food bowls are washed and rotated daily

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

[Junkzoo]

All comments taken into consideration,,,,,but as i think back the one reason i went to corn cob,,some 20 years ago,,,,was that Sinbad would reach thru the grate, and pull up the newspaper,,when i was using it,,,,after i see what he does to a adding machine paper roll now, :nuts: :doh: , i can only imagine he'd revert to pulling up the paper , if I went back to it,,,LOL
(If you all are reading between the lines, like I am,LOL, i seeing a new,larger cage in his future,,,with deeper distance 'tween grate and cage bottom, so's he can't mess with the covering ,,,,:scratchch ;) :emot-danc :rotflmao: )

[Junkzoo]

I study Merlin and Shelby's cage papers every morning and evening.



Dr. C, I think you need to read the paper b4 you put it in the cages,,,,LOL:rofl:
Sorry, could not help it,,,,,,:shrug2:

[Shirley]

JEFFFFFFF!!!!!! :lol_hit: :rolleyes:

[jimleasure]

my green cheeks and black capped conures always are shredding the paper on the bottom of the cage. they reach through the grate with their feet and pull it up enough and then just shred it. they have other shredding toys in their cages and use them also, but for some reason they love to mess with the paper:shrug2:
what i have been doing lately is adding a few extra pages of the paper to the bottom and they usually grab them and by the time they have shredded them they are bored with that and go to one of the other toys. the only thing is having to clean all of the shredded newspaper up from the floor, but then again if they're happy i'm happy:drool2:

jim leasure

[Ellen K. Cook, DVM]

Dr. C, I think you need to read the paper b4 you put it in the cages,,,,LOL:rofl:
Sorry, could not help it,,,,,,:shrug2:

But, Jeff, it is much more interesting to read the news that has been edited by cockatoos :highfive:

[Jean]

But, Jeff, it is much more interesting to read the news that has been edited by cockatoos :highfive:

Most definitely! :highfive: :heart: :rotflmao:

[SadennaAndFlock]

Pine shavings are safe but need to be changed regularly at least once a day to twice a day in warmer weather to avoid bacteria and mold growth..the gal I work for that raises birds she has to change the baby brooders each day dumping out the pine shavings each day and throughly cleaning the brooder and replacing with fresh pine shavings..she only uses kiln dried pine shavings hey are much bigger lighter and seem to be less dusty than your average pine shavings for small animals and such. but I would stick with plain old newspaper for cage bottoms it's cheaper and if you subscribe to your local paper like we do we get a nice big sunday apper with lots of black and white pages which there is usually enough to do almost all the cages, with the tiels and the bourkes we use little nickels since hey are free we always grab a small stack when we are at the grocery store.

[Griminsdj]

OK Read everyone's answers...and it brought about a thought/question. I have read, from the House Rabbit Society, various articles on small animal health on the web and such that the use of pine, not just cedar, but also pine shavings can cause both respiratory infections and urinary tract and kidney problems from the oils in them. So wouldn't it stand to reason that birds with an even more sensitive respiratory tract woudl be more sensitive to these oils?


I have various animals and have used and tried various substrates.

The birds get Newspapers.

The tortoise is on newspaper right now, with a pile of hay to hide in, but in the winter when he eats and poops less, and wants to burrow, I use alfalfa pellets that you feed rabbits. You still have to clean it out frequently but if he ingests it it won't impact in him.

The rabbits' tray is lined with newspaper, she has a litter box filled with Yesterday's News pellets. I've also used rabbit pellets in the litter tray. Safe if they want to taste, and surprisingly odor absorbing.

The guinea pig is still on pine though, with a 13x9 baking pan of Yesterday's news as a litter tray. I tried that Carefresh bedding it's extremely expensive and doesnt' absorb the odor like it should.

[Shirley]

Snakes / reptiles should never be on cedar, and shouldn't be fed mice that grow up in cedar.

Non-feeder mice/hamsters, etc live fine in cedar from what I've seen and experienced. Many years ago I had gerbils, and they lived in cedar w/o getting sick.

We raised mice for quite some time while living in Louisiana and hatching baby corn snakes. They (the mice) lived in pine shavings, and later, rice hulls which are really cheap down there and sold for horse stalls by the 40# bag/$4.00 or so.

Our mice never suffered from living in pine shavings.

Our snakes lived in corncob, and did just fine, although it was scooped regularly, though only changed every 3 mos or so (snakes don't mess much) Troy's corn snakes (2 are over 14 yrs old! and one is a year old) have lived in corncob all their lives, and not changed often enough, imo. They've never been sick.

Reptiles and birds, from what I've heard, are sensitive to things (such as cedar oils) that mammals are not sensitive to.

I've seen cockatiels and budgies raised in petshops (not that they have a clue) in pine shavings, walnut, and corncob... in those large open acrylic pens. One shop stopped using all substrates except newspapers b/c the large number of birds on the pine or corncob produced too much bacteria, and they would sometimes get sick (infections).

Back when I was teaching, one of my 5th grade team teachers kept a rabbit in his classroom for years... it lived on either pine or cedar, can't remember.

In summary, BIRDS should never be placed in cages with corncob/walnut/pine/etc. Newsprint/newspapers is the route for best possible health. And there's no criticism in this post regarding what anyone here is using... just info.

fwiw,
Shirley

[Brandy]

kelly, yes thats true regular pine shavings are bad for small animals because of respitory problems,,,but Kiln dried pine is okay for them

I never use anything but kiln dried,

[Shirley]

kelly, yes thats true regular pine shavings are bad for small animals because of respitory problems,,,but Kiln dried pine is okay for them

I never use anything but kiln dried,

I never thought about that... I always use the retail sacks of pine shavings... so they are kiln-dried I'm sure. Don't know where I'd get anything else... without a sawmill in the backyard :funny:

Thanks for clarifying that, Brandy! :)

[SadennaAndFlock]

The Kiln dried is the only ones the gal I work for uses..they are wonderful she ha been raising birds for 26 years and has always used the pine...she tried the aspen but did not get absorbancy she does with the pine. You don't normally find the kiln dried in the store...if you have a business license you can usually get it from the local distributor warehouse that supplies the local stores..SunSeed brand is what the gal I work for uses and she gets it the local pets supply warehouse that supplies all the local petstores with their stock.

[Griminsdj]

I never thought about that... I always use the retail sacks of pine shavings... so they are kiln-dried I'm sure. Don't know where I'd get anything else... without a sawmill in the backyard :funny:

Thanks for clarifying that, Brandy! :)

I didn't think all retail shavings are kiln dried.....I bought the big bulk bags from Walmart and when I opened it it was still damp, the package was completely airtight but you could almost feel the moisture in it..like it was fresh shavings..kwim? I sneeze something fierce when I open that bag, even though the dust content is low?

Now the smaller airtight packs of the chlorophyll shavings I buy from the grocery store for Swinka, they are very dry to the touch, I'll have to read the packages next time to see if they are kiln dried, I still sneeze but not as bad...


Shirley that was great information on not feeding snakes mice that were kept on pine shavings! Never thougth about it but it makes perfect sense about not contaminating their food source with things they are sensitive with!