Harley Update

[Jenn]

It's been a while since I posted. Not a whole lot to report. Harley is *still* chewing his feathers. He seems to wait until one is about 4" long and then he snips it off. We have been able to have him to the point where there are 2 or 3 feathers on his wings that get to that length, and then one by one he snips them.

I bought some Quell anti-picking spray. Scott put it on him last week and half an hour later there was a feather on the stand. He usually only snips when he's in his cage.

Other than my being a bit discouraged about his feather chewing, he's doing great. He loves to entertain my customers. I need to set up a video camera in the window - people after hours stop to look at him through the window and when he bobs his head, the people all do the same - it's hysterical. I need to take a video and send it to that TV show :)

He's still a bit moody and unpredictable, but we're beginning to be able to predict his unpredictablity ... if that makes any sense.

My cat here at the house thought he'd stalk Harley for a while when Harley first came home with us - then he thought again after he heard Harley squawk! :roflmao2:

Harley did not like being in a tree. We have a small tree in the yard where we could retrieve him if need be but we thought he'd like to play outside on something other than a stand. He looked and felt out of his element there. We'll keep trying.

He's learning new vocalizations - he mimics me, he mimics my conures. He has learned to call for Eric -- Eric taught him that - which is nice, but not when Eric isn't here LOL!

I still get the sense that he doesn't trust us fully - he still bites too often, but when he's in a sweet mood, he's a fabulous bird. He's teaching us all some patience - not to get angry but rather to walk away from him when he's less than congenial. Hopefully in time he'll learn that we will never harm him, and we can earn his trust.

Jenn

[Shirley]

Hi Jenn,

Thanks for the update! I was thinking of you while at the bird show.. they had "Pluck no More" there and a special feather plucker shampoo. Didn't you get the "Pluck no More" that you mix yourself into a mister? I thought you did... Well, I read about it recently somewhere and the users, not in an ad, were talking about how well it worked, so I went ahead and bought it for Skyler. It's expensive, $34.95, but if it works, it's totally worth it. So far, no changes, but we've only had it since last Sunday. His feathers have all grown back for the most part, and he appears to be at the "end" of this stage, but is still in his collar. This stuff does cool his "hot spots" down... feet and under his wings. We'll see. The shampoo has some aloe in it, so he was nice and soft after his bath instead of ratty and "stiff" the way Dawn leaves him. The instructions are the same as Dawn: once ever 5-6 wks, rinse thoroughly.

So Harley's coming home every night now? If so, how does he like that?

Thanks again for the update -
Shirley

[Jenn]

No he's not coming home every night - just if we aren't going to be there early the next day.

He doesn't pluck - he snips. He does not pull feathers out, but rather cuts the quills off --- sort of a self-wing-clip... but he clips the tail too - although I haven't seen any tail feathers really grow - he's still got a duck-butt *g*. I've seen about 6 primary feathers on his wings grow out a few inches, then he snips it off. The stuff I bought was Quell by Vibrac/Mardel, but like I said, within 30 minutes of Scott putting it on his wing-tips, he snipped off one feather. So I haven't used it again.

I'm thinking that a collar may be in order - for at night anyway, but I don't want to do that til I'm equipped to bring him home at night. I wouldn't leave him unattended with a collar on.

Otherwise, he's doing well... baby steps I guess.

Jenn

[Shirley]

Sounds like an excellent next step to me. Skyler sleeps just fine in his collar, and having him home with you is the best, safest option. Of course, only one night without and you're back to square one.

:tighthug:

[Jean]

Hi Jenn, it's good to read your update on Harley. It sounds like you have made some good choices and are giving all efforts a chance to work. There are so many challenges for him to overcome. Sometimes it just takes time and a lot of trial and error to make a tiny step forward, sometimes one backward. If we only knew the magic touch! Thank you, for sharing Harley with us. :tighthug:

[Ginny]

Hi Jenn,

Thanks so much for the update. I have been thinking about you and Harley. It sounds like you are doing a good job and it will take baby steps at first. Just keep working with him. Lots of love and patience. :heart:

[Jim]

Thanks for the update Jenn, I too have been thinking about you and Harley. He is so much better off now that he was. :heart: Little steps sound lkke a good plan.:agree:

[Jenn]

I have to say it's frustrating that we can't seem to get him to stop snipping feathers. He gets loads of stimulation and entertainment - he's even got "his" regulars who stop by to laud attention on him. Of course most don't touch him but they talk to him and engage him and anyone can see his confidence is up - he KNOWS he's all that and a bag of chips! http://thebirdforums.com/forums/images/smilies/em/rofl.gif


I've got some new toys for him too and lately he has really taken to destroying them http://thebirdforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif I know that's a good thing - gives him a chance to forrage and work out his frustrations - he's downright mad and screamy sometimes when he's working something over. I'm glad he picks at that stuff but wish I could be sure he's doing that instead of being self destructive. By and large he looks better but the ratty short feathers... ugh.

I'm going to see if I can get a collar from the wholesaler this week, if not I will ask my vet for one. Hate to do it but something tells me that if we could just get him grown out more, he might leave them alone, or at least if we can make him stop long enough, the habit might be broken. We'll see.

Mood-wise, he has his days. Sometimes he's soft-spoken and affectionate, and other days when we try to touch him he's paranoid and screamy. It's almost like he's not sure if we're going to hurt him or not - and we haven't. Like I said he still doesn't trust us. All we can do is keep doing what we're doing and be patient with him.

On a side note - I took the conures to a trade show last weekend - they went with me last year too, and people were glad to see them again http://thebirdforums.com/forums/images/smilies/em/laugh.gif They ride around on my shoulders and mooch bird treats and stuff. We had a great time! Everybody commented on how well behaved they are -- I was pretty proud of 'em!

And we're on hatch-watch for the cockatiels. Today is the 18th day since the third of 4 eggs was laid - so anytime in the next 3 days or so, if the eggs are viable, we will have chicks.

And if that's not enough excitement... my friend/customer Jeremy, who has a very interesting occupation, brought in his latest charge...I'm veering heavily off-topic but just had to share this because it's just too cool!

http://www.imagine-ocean.com/clients/kangaroo/P1010120.JPG

Jeremy is a keeper at the Kangaroo Conservation Center - the largest collection of roos outside of Australia and it's right here in Georgia. Most of the 200 or so roos at this facility were born in captivity - including young Turk here. Turk is a red kangaroo. Turk was kicked out of the pouch at about 2 months of age. He's now about 4 or 5 months. Jeremy carries him around in a "pouch" made out of a towel, with a shoulder strap on it. Normally Turk wouldn't emerge from the pouch for some more months, except perhaps a peek out now and then.

Never a dull moment in my shop - you never know who or what will come through the door!

Jenn

[Junkzoo]

Jenn, thanks for the update on Harley,,,keep us going on the the progress,,,:thumbup:
BTW: Turk is SO cool!
Thanks!

[Shirley]

Turk is adorable! And what a muzzle he has!!

[Ginny]

OH MY I just love roo's how cute. Boy I sure wish I had gotten into doing more with animals when I was younger.

[Jenn]

Starting another new thread... we've got an e-collar for Harley...

Jenn

[Jenn]

I haven't posted an update on Harley in forever. Today I took a few pictures with my camera phone - they aren't super clear but they do show that some of his primary feathers are coming in.

If I manage this posting right, I'll try to post current pictures as well as one "before" when we first got him last summer.

Jenn

[Jenn]

For reference, here's a couple of pix we took when we first got him. One was taken at the beginning of July when we got him and the other was taken about a month later of his tail...or where his tail should have been at the time. That pic was taken on 8/01, 8 months ago.


He hasn't really had a full molt yet, a few feathers here and there, he had a couple of longer tail feathers around Christmas - he bit one halfway and the other one eventually broke, although it grew to full length. He didn't chew it off, but he'd worked it pretty hard. I think if he gets a grouping of feathers he'll be more inclined to leave them alone, or preen them "equally" not overworking a lone feather.

His wing feathers haven't grown any since the summer - he was still chewing them off as they got to be about 3" long during that time... I haven't seen him chew any off but no new ones have grown in that I've noticed as of late.

He's still moody - sweet one minute and screamy and snippy the next. I have discovered that a lot of the time when he "lunges" as if to bite, he simply hits with his beak. Takes a lot of overriding my own "fight or flight" instinct not to retreat when he lunges - because sometimes he WILL nail me, but it seems that more often than not he just hits me (and that can hurt too but not as much as a bite).

He's learned a few more words - says "Pretty bird", "Hey birdie!", "Come on Harley or Come here, Harley!" (when I call him to come back to his cage!) and he loves to say, "Whatever!" (just like a teenager, minus the rolling eyes!). He says a few other things too. He likes to scream at kids and make them cry - he seems to get a real kick out of that :( He also comes out of his cage and walks on the floor behind kids in the shop - of course I'm always *right there* as I don't want any mishaps but he really seems to like "short people" (kids).

All in all he's doing better and looking better - but he still has a long way to go.

Jenn

[Shirley]

Hi Jenn,
Great to hear from you! Any chance you can take pics of Harley with a regular camera? (I can hardly see them - maybe my monitor resolution is just "too small")

Sounds like he's coming along... Does he like the kids, or like to tease the kids? Is he happy when he's "chasing them" or is he upset that they are "in his shop?" Just curious...

That's wonderful he hasn't chewed anymore feathers lately! It does take a long time to molt the old feathers... but it will happen one by one.

Thanks so much again for posting and checking in with us! Been thinking of you!

[Jenn]

He likes the "shock value" he gets in startling people when he screams - then he'll mimic a laughing sound as if he's laughing at his joke. He vocalizes but he's never been aggressive toward anyone by doing that - he just seems to get a kick out of causing people to jump out of their own skin. Once they approach his cage, he'll hang upside down, bob his head (and the people will then bob their heads!!) and otherwise show off for whomever will watch. He knows he's all that and a bag of chips - he's not lacking in the self-confidence department anymore, that's for sure.

When he follows kids, he just follows - doesn't chase and doesn't menace. He nearly followed my Doctor (my people doctor, who is also my customer) and her daughter right out the door yesterday! We had to call Harley back, he was following Allana all over the shop and she giggled and Harley kept babbling sweetly to her. He's definitely enthralled with kids, and he seems to enjoy interacting with them - we keep a physical distance from the kids and Harley - I don't want biting even if it's an accident, and he seems content to respect a distance. He seems more curious about these "smaller" people than anything else. It's funny to watch.

I really think he "likes" kids - just by his demeanor around them.

I do need to bring my real camera in - today's pix were just with my cheesy camera phone camera. However in posting these, looking at last August's picture, I can't believe how much better his plumage looks now. I still think he looks ratty with his short choppy primary feathers, but his body feathers are so sleek and shiny and smooth now, whereas in that old pic from last summer, he's still really dull and disshevelled looking. When we're with him day in and day out we don't notice changes like that but looking at the contrast between that photo and how he is in front of me today - wow.

Also when customers come in that haven't been in for a while, they always comment on how much better he looks - reassuring to me that we're doing someting right ;)

It's a slow process - I'd hoped he'd molt out all the chopped off stuff by now, but hopefully eventually. I know that in the wild if they molted out all their primaries at once they wouldn't be able to fly until new ones grew in, so there's a reason for the slow turnover in those feathers - I'm just impatient to see if he lets the next grouping grow in properly.

Jenn

[Shirley]

Jenn -- that just sounds terrific! He sounds very happy and confident! I can't wait to see more pics! And hear more stories.

And... I still have ALL the pics we took - the Luna moth, the whole bit. Did you ever get them all? Want any more of them? If so, where should I send them?

[Jean]

Hi Jenn, it's great to see you and heave such a good update on Harley. He's come a long way already and is looking so much better.

Thank you so much for keeping us informed of his progress. You've done a lot for him.

[amazing greys]

:wavey: Hi Jenn, so great to see an update on Harley!! Even though the pics are small I do see much improvement and a tail!! :thumbup:


Great to hear he has fun at the store during the day, it is wonderful for him to interact with other people and being a good boy with the kids :highfive:

I would LOVE to see better pics of your beautiful Harley!! I just love those B&G's!!

Give him some scritches and kisses from us and tell him he's doing great!!

[parrotgirl]

Hi Jenn, he is looking real good, I'm so glad he is leaving those feathers alone again.


Hey, whats the problem with chasing the kids away, I'm always doing it, but they keep coming back lol.

WELL DONE HARLEY.

[Jenn]

I keep forgetting my camera :(

Shirley - send me a link to those pix if you would - I think you sent it to me before but I lost it... OR email me jennm517 "at" gmail "dot" com :)

Cheers,
Jenn

[Jim]

Hello Jenn, long time no see.

Harley looks Sooooo much better. :emot-danc Something is working that's for sure. Keep up the good work - little forward steps are great in my book.

Thank You for the update, like others I've wondered how things were going.

[Jenn]

Here's a picture I just took. He has chewed/broken 2 tail feathers but has 2 good ones still... a few wing feathers trying to come in but it's sooooo slow.


Jenn

[parrotgirl]

He is looking good, sorry to hear he chewed/broke 2 tail feathers. Thanks for the picture. What a difference from when you first got him.

[Dynaglide625]

Wow Jenn, I was browsing thru some old posts, and what a difference in Harley today compared to the old pics. Looks like he's coming along, though it is a slow process. I guess as humans, we can't understand why our feathered buddies would want to "get rid of" their pretty plumage when we enjoy it so much. Harley is still a beautiful creature though. Anne

[Jenn]

Thanks :) Yeah for us who see him day to day it was quite a shock for me to look at old pix versus how he looks now. People have been saying how much better he looks :)

I just wish he'd molt out all the broken feathers and let new ones grow! At least he's not plucking - his breast feathers have always been nice, IMO, just the primaries on the wings and tail he seems to mess with. Shame.

When I think back - when we first got him he had some bleeding feathers and that worried me, I've heard they can bleed out if they break or chew a blood feather and it's not stopped. He never bled profusely but he did have some "leaky" blood feathers. When we got him within the first few days we had him seen by our vet, who examined him thoroughly and trimmed up some of the more shredded quills, so they wouldn't shred up into the quick. Something tells me that was aggravating the situation - if it hurt or itched, he'd pick at it more. Since a short time after his "haircut" he had no more bleeding, thank God. He seems to snip them off leaving a few inches, not down to the quick like he had before.

He's still moody and unpredictable at times - but I'm finding (forgive me if I'm repeating myself here), he lunges sometimes as if to bite, but he just "hits". It's hard not to pull back, but to stand my ground to see what he's going to do because he does bite sometimes... but I think he's "testing" me at times.

He did bite JT yesterday :( Didn't draw blood but gave him a good pinch. It's hard to stay patient with him at times like that - we just don't understand why he does it, or if it's something we're doing to prompt that behavior.

On a positive note, he's not afraid of water anymore. At first when we got him I went too close to him with a coffee cup and he panicked. He used to hate the spray bottle too but he likes it now. I think he may have been punished with water. Now he knows it's a treat to have a shower, not a punishment.

He loves his toys - as temporary as toys are with a bird like him :lol: He goes through toys like nobody's business but that's OK I'd rather have him destroy toys than himself. He gets "mad" at his toys and screams at them at times.

He likes to hang like a bat, upside down, to show off for people. Often he hangs by a single toe. Then he'll grab the side of his cage with his beak, spread his wings and his eyes dialate wildly as he shows off for people. It's too funny. He also "trains" everybody who comes by - either inside the store or outside the window, to bob their heads up and down, or side to side, "Stevie Wonder" style! It's hysterical to watch anyone and everyone mimic his actions. One day I'll have to set up a camcorder to record all the people going by and looking silly imitating the bird - he gets such a kick out of that (as do we!). There's a restaurant down the mall and it's funny to see people strolling back to their cars after a Margarita or two, pause to see the bird and mimic whatever he's doing. Too funny ;)

If it was attention he was lacking in his last home - he's not short of it now!

Jenn

[Shirley]

Sounds great, Jenn! And he looks so good!

As for biting JT, I personally would just ask JT to avoid the bites entirely. I talk to Play-Doh everyday, and he hardly ever bites me b/c I AVOID his beak and don't try to handle him. No need to. He is bonded to Steve. But... if I were to walk too close to the tree stand while he's out on it, he'll reach out and get me... it doesn't make me upset at all, I just realize I walked into his space and remember that he's out. I'd rather have nice positive interactions with him than try to get him to let me touch him or get in his space. Maybe Harley "loses" patience that JT keeps trying to touch him? Don't know... but could be... think like Harley... hasn't he told JT not to touch him, or does he sometimes allow it? Mainly, though, have JT reward him for good things, and ignore the bad, and avoid the bites. :wub:

[Jenn]

Actually, Harley is more bonded to JT than anyone. Sometimes I think Harley just tolerates me ;) He's good with me but he seems to like JT better. Goodness knows why ... :funny: (Just kidding, JT! ;) )

Seriously he can be sweet with all of us (JT, Eric, Scott and myself), and I think JT is his favourite person. He just gets moody at times - and that's the best way I can describe it. One moment he's all sweet and affectionate, the next moment he screams and bites - for no apparent reason. No quick moves, no harsh words or anything like that on our part - he's kind of "Cybill at the switch" at times. We figure it's just a part of his personality, that probably has come with mistrust of people because he's been treated less than ideally in the past. If I were him I'd have issues too ;)

We do all try to avoid the bites - nobody likes to get chomped by a Macaw :) I usually stand out of bite range unless he's in a cuddly mood - it's funny, when we first got him if I was trying to calm him to pet him I'd quietly say, "Shhhhh" and soft soothing words like "be nice", "good boy" and stuff like that - calm quiet voice makes calm quiet bird (most times!) Over time, Harley learned to say, "ssssss" (no "h") and he mimics me when I'm trying to soothe him to have nice quiet petting time :) He often says that to me first before I shhh him! He'll click to me too, his last keeper said that he hated that sound, but he'll often click to me to encourage me to pet him - it's funny.

Hopefully in time he'll settle down and stop biting. He's definitely better than he was at first, although the day we brought him home I was scared to death to collect him for transport - I think he was just as scared but never once at that time did he try to harm me. He's very gentle with more experienced "bird people"... a couple that lives nearby came to visit him once as they have a B&G and the man asked to hold Harley. I wasn't sure, but when he approached Harley, Harley went to him willingly, and was kissing him and preening him - he could sense that the man was accustomed to handling a large bird and that confidence was reciprocated. I think at times Harley knows I have a more than healthy respect for his strength and he uses that to his advantage. By not backing down at times, I think he backs down a bit and just hits instead of bites. We still tell him, "no bite" when he does this.

On a more positive note, when he's playing on the floor sometimes he gets a bit too up close and personal with my toes (if I have sandals on). I'll let him explore a bit but if he starts to nibble (not with intent to hurt, sometimes I think he doesn't know his own strength) but if he starts nibbling a bit too enthusiastically I'll say, "No bite" and he stops - so he at least understands that command :) Once or twice he's nibbled a bit hard and before I've said anything, if I've withdrawn my toe (or finger!) he'll say, "Ouch! Stop it!" He knew this vocalization when we got him.

My biggest issue with him is screaming. I can understand it if he's mad at his toys, but he sometimes screams at passers-by - wanting attention. I just wish he'd realize that he would garner more attention by using nice vocalizations - whistling, talking or quieter "bird squawking"... we try to ignore screaming, but customers are often irritated by it - they don't scold him or anything, but they do turn their attention to him... which is what he wants. Double-edged sword there I guess.

He's a complicated bird :) Of course they all are, aren't they?

Jenn

[Jenn]

OK I got a decent picture of Harley's tail. Going to *try* here to post a before and after picture http://thebirdforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif


First pic was taken August 1, 05

http://www.salemplace.com/images/harley_tail_close_8_01_05.jpg

The next picture was taken today, April 13, 06

http://www.salemplace.com/images/harley_tail_close_4_13_06.jpg

Hopefully the pix are large enough to see but not too big for the monitor http://thebirdforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Jenn

[Jim]

Wooo Hooo Jenn, Harley looks soooo much better.:woot: It's a good sign he's letting some feathers grow in. Little by little maybe he'll leave them alone.

Want to add to what Shirley said about the biting which I agree with. Most of the time when a bird bites for what we see as no apparent reason, it is what they have learned from past experience. At some point Harley may have learned that pinning his eyes, giving that look, opening his beak as a warning or even avoiding a hand or person did no good. So now he just bites as communication because it's the only thing that works.

We all see things differently so I'll tell my little story. I was at a persons home that had birds and was told, be careful he bites for no reason. I walk over to the bird, he put his foot up and I backed off. The owner says, wow he wants you to pick him up, but be careful he may bite. I didn't get that message, I thought the bird was telling me to back up. Okay I don't say anything I figure I'll see for myself what he wants. I go back extend my hand, the foot goes up, I move my hand a little closer, his eyes pin and his beak is slightly opened. Believe me, that bird did not want to get on my hand.

Now for the sad part, at least IMO. She walks over, not forcing the bird but it was plain to me the bird was being submissive and he stepped up. She gave the bird to me and he didn't bite me but again in my eyes the bird was on me from fear of what might happen if he didn't comply.

Harley is in a good situation now and should come around in time. Empowering our birds with choices is the best thing we can do for a long term relationship.

You're doing doing really good with Harley as far as I can see.:agree:
Keep up the good work. :thumbup:

[Jenn]

Perhaps we need more lessons in bird body language ;) What I don't get is one minute you'll be petting him - say he's on the T-stand, he's craning his neck or putting his tail up, obviously enjoying a scratch, then suddenly he lunges. It's like he's testing us or faking us out. I can see him not wanting to be picked up or moved or whatnot, but when a lunge comes in the middle of something he obviously enjoys, that's puzzling.


Jenn

[Shirley]

Hi Jenn,
You're doing great, and Jim gave you excellent info...

I copied this from your previous post:

My biggest issue with him is screaming. I can understand it if he's mad at his toys, but he sometimes screams at passers-by - wanting attention.

IMO, he's flock calling them to his "flock" or saying his Flock hello to them. This is natural for them. Shelby did it and still does it. Yes, it WAS a problem when clients came to my house where my business is, and she would flock call UNTIL they said hi to her, once she saw them approach her, she was all sweetness and nice soft vocalizations... but... not all my clients wanted to meet Shelby, and ... I did not want them parading through the house to meet her (and all the other birds in the same room) so it came to the point of moving Shelby to the finished basement to her 2nd cage there until the client left. This was not every day, and not for more than 1-2 hrs at a time, and Shelby didn't seem to mind a bit, but it wasn't "fun" to have to work it out that way, either. But you're in a different situation... they don't have to go through your house to see the bird so it will quiet down. (She'd flock call as they left, too! and if the phone rang while they were here, even though I had the answering machine take the call, she'd flock call. She flock called to the phone, doorbell, and people she'd see out the window or from the yard) Dr. Cook told me she has let them know at her clinic the comings and goings of those who visit the shops across the street! :funny: But she can't always see out their front window.

You name it, we tried it to modify Shelby's flock call... she'd modify a lot, but she wasn't going to change that. She could call the neighbors from 6 blocks down if she chose to do so.

There was a B&G who lived at the local pet supplies store near us for a very long time - she's in a home now. She was not for sale, but belonged to the store. She hardly ever made a sound... just sat there on her big T-stand at the register area... sometimes talked, mostly was quiet. go figure. Great big store front windows across the front, not 25 ft from her T-stand.

[Jim]

Morning Jenn

I was thinking more along the lines of it not bring you or the family all that much. Watching and learning body lanuage is an on going thing so watching for signs is a big help. Maybe Harley has learned nothing in between has worked in the past so he goes straight to the nip.

Another story and I may get in trouble if Sharon reads this. The guys both use more force with Sharon than they do with me. They have learned they need to. They beak/nip, display, pin eyes, even lunge at times with her. She says to me and them - what in the world I didn't do anything.

Well... no she may not have at that moment BUT I have watch before and she has ignored their wishes many times. Example: She'll be scratching Nino's head, he'll pull his head away or put his foot up to her finger/hand and she keeps going. He's Okay with this *sometimes* and sometimes he well nip her body or finger. Most of the time this happens when she is head rubbing, he hears something, she says Oh it's just the TV and keeps going. See in my mind she has taught him that he needs more force with her to get her attention.

As I said I think you're doing great and I believe Harley will come around once *he* learns by your gentleness he doesn't need to act this way with his new family.

[Jenn]

I do realize it's a flock call - he just wants everybody to know he's here and he's "it"! It's just kind of grating at times ;) And since many of my customers aren't 'bird people' they find it annoying.

Last weekend we had our big anniversary sale. We knew the store would be busier than usual and that we wouldn't be able to supervise Harley and his guests ;) We moved his cage into the back room for Saturday and Sunday. He was a LOT quieter back there and a few of his regular visitors went back to see him. We did bring him out onto the stand at times during the day when somebody was behind the counter to be with him at all times.

He squawked a bit in the back room but not as much as we expected.

Back last July on the day we picked him up from his other home, we walked in the front door on the main floor of the house, and as *soon* as he heard voices upstairs, he began flock calling. He knew there was something different going on upstairs and he wanted to know or be a part of it. My heart was his at that moment :)

He was really in a good mood last night. We came back shortly after closing to receive a delivery and some people were admiring him through the window - and he's always happy to indulge onlookers. I brought him outside (it was a very warm evening in the mid 70s) and he flirted with the people and snuggled into my neck.

I do think that a lot of his behaviors stem from baggage he brings with him from whatever he experienced in his past. We do our best to reward good behavior and ignore bad. He knows when he's being less than congenial - somewhere in his past he learned how to say "bad bird". Breaks my heart when he says this - we don't say it to him. He also says, "bad dog"...although I don't bring my dog here LOL! He did have a dog in his last home.

We pretty much take advantage of his nice times, and try not to make a big deal of his not so nice times, and just leave him be til he's in a better mood ;) It's the unpredicability that's troublesome - although admittedly those episodes are fewer lately. I think on some level he's testing us to see if he is "bad bird" what we'll do - like he doesn't trust us to love him anyway, if that makes any sense.

In any event, he's better off here than he was, and he sure does get a lot of attention nowadays - and the more he gets, the more he craves :) He's an "attention ho"!

Jenn

[Jenn]

Just posted this pic in the "I don't like to get wet" thread, but figured I'd pop it in here for historical purposes :)


Here's a shot of Harley after his shower this morning. We've started showering him a bit more, 2 or 3 times a week, it really seems to help the new feathers he's growing... before they were looking ratty, as if somebody had rubbed them backward and split the feathers (not the shafts, just the feather part)... showering seems to smooth it all back, and his feathers are looking shinier.

Perhaps he'll pose for me later now that he's all dry and handsome again.

He's been letting me pet and "preen" him more - I like rubbing the sheaths off the new feathers and he seems to like it too - I imagine that molting new feathers with all those sheaths must be an itchy process...

His feathers seem to be growing quickly now - in the last few weeks since I posted last, he's re-grown numerous primaries, especially on his wings. Perhaps by his "birthday" with us (we got him in July) he'll look more like a healthy, normal, well-adjusted bird.

Jenn ;)

[Ginny]

WOW what a change. Look at that long beautiful tail. To think when you got him he didn't have any tail. You are doing a great job with him. :goodjob:


Take care and keep up the good work. Tell Harley we are proud of him. :wub:

[parrotgirl]

Thought I was going mad there for a mo, until that is I read you had just posted the pic in the "I hate to get wet" thread, his tail is magnificent, and yeah what a difference there is in him now.

[amazing greys]

Jenn, thanks for the update and new pic of Harley. I must also agree you are doing a great job, his tail looks wonderful!!

He's such a sweet boy, even with his quirks, I'm glad you are there for him and helping him every way possible!

Give him some kisses for me :heart:

[Jenn]

Thought I was going mad there for a mo, until that is I read you had just posted the pic in the "I hate to get wet" thread, his tail is magnificent, and yeah what a difference there is in him now.

Mad? Why? (just curious...)

Yeah it's weird - his feathers are starting to grow pretty quickly these last few weeks. Perhaps he's in a good molt finally? He hasn't chewed much recently, and his demeanor, while still somewhat unpredictable, is more "nice" and less "snippy" than it once was. I'm sure "snippy" will always be part of his personality but I think he's finally realizing that he's home here ;)

Jenn

[parrotgirl]

Mad? Why? (just curious...)Jenn

Saw the pic of Harley and knew I had just posted but I could not find it, then I realised I was on a different thread. lol.

[Jenn]

Hehehe oops - yeah I posted the same pic in both threads.

Been busy here so I haven't played with him too much today... but he did enjoy some lettuce and baked potato from my lunch ;)

Jenn

[Jim]

Hi Jenn

Harley is looking better every time I see a new picture. You're doing great with him. I'm so happy to hear he's showering 2-3 times a week. I personally think as long as the bird enjoys it (not stressing them out) showers and a good diet are the best things for good feather condition. I see a difference in my boys' personality after a good shower. Like they feel better. Weeks I don't get to shower them 2-3 times they seem grumpy to me.

Just my opinion here. Feathers are dead mass once they are fully grown. They are kept in shape and shiny by preening and in the case of a B&G the preening gland to get the needed oils while preening. Now in my mind showers help the new feathers grow properly and look good. Also birds see into different light spectrums so a good feather to us may not look so good to them. Guess without getting way out there on this, I'm saying I hope the showers are going to make good looking feathers to Harley and he'll preen them properly.

Nice he is letting you preen him more. That's a defiant bonding/excepting behavior. That's a big plus.

Keep up the good work as I know you will.

[Jenn]

Thanks, Jim, I really appreciate your input - your boys are a testament to your knowledge of the species.

The showers are definitely making a difference. Feathers are looking better that's for sure - much smoother. And each time we give him a good soaking, he seems to like it more. At first way back when, he protested, now he opens his wings to let us wet underneath them. His wings still look pretty ragged, I guess it will just take more time to regrow all that he mangled so badly. He still keeps turning around when we try to wet his back - he always wants to face us! Still, he gets a good warm soaking :)

Unfortunately we have no knowledge about how long he did this to himself, or the extent of the damage. Our vet couldn't say for sure if he thought everything would grow in normally, or if there was damage to the follicles (are they called follicles in birds?) where the feathers had been chewed off so badly. I know some were split right up into the quick when we got him, he actually was bleeding from a few. Ron (our vet) trimmed away some of the other split stuff so they wouldn't split up into the quick (didn't cause anymore bleeding - he was very careful and he knows what he's doing!). At the time he examined him he didn't want to stress him too much either, we'd only had him for a couple of days at the time. Ron saw him a couple of weeks ago when he was here and was impressed with the improvement. Soon I'll bring him in for another checkup - Ron said now he'd like to do some blood work. He doesn't have any immediate concerns but he feels that it would be a good idea, and Harley is manageable enough now that this shouldn't put undue stress on him. So in about a month or so I'll bring him in. I may splurge for the DNA test to determine his (her?!) sex too.. since he'll already be drawing blood, may as well do that too. I don't think I'd bother to have a special sample drawn just for that but since he'll be having that done, may as well know once and for all, right?

He's spending a lot of time with his adding machine tape! I keep hanging a new roll and he usually manages to cut it down, but I made a new hanger with some hemp cord from the craft store, and some plastic beads from a bird toy kit I had bought, and dusted off my rusty macrame skills and he hasn't managed to tear the hanger down yet! People joke that he's like a toddler that finds a toilet paper roll and stands there and unravels it... he pulls the paper with his feet and his beak, wraps himself in it (preening himself with it?), tears it and there's a huge pile of it on the floor of his cage... but no matter, he'll just unravel a bunch more. Just like a kid - give him $200 worth of toys he'd rather play with the box... or the packing paper!

Here's a couple of pix I took today after his soaking. I don't think he liked me taking his picture while he was looking like a drowned rat :) I swear his mood can change when he thinks he's not looking good.. months ago when we tried the e-collar on him I am quite sure he was depressed about it so we took it off again. Funny how they have almost human-like moods!

Jenn

[Jenn]

Minor setback of sorts today. Harley chewed off one of the newer primary feathers from one of his wings. I've attached a photo, of the underside of the feather, as it shows the chewing more clearly than the top side of the feather.

It's the first feather I've seen off in a while - I thought at first perhaps it fell out, but the end of it is all frayed and chewed :( There were lots of bite marks on the feather too... he worked it pretty hard before he took it off.

My vet said that this feather chewing is a lot like nail-biting. Once it becomes a habit, it's hard to break.

The only different thing in the last couple of days is a new toy - and this is something we do every couple of weeks, since he's a toy-wrecking machine... I'm always replacing toys as they are destroyed, so he'll have something else to do. Until now I haven't seen this as a problem. Otherwise his cage placement, diet and routine are the same as always.

Any thoughts/suggestions?

Jenn

[Jim]

Hmmmm.... Could it be that it's not as new as you think.:shrug: I mean I can only imagine how you must feel seeing a feather out, worrying that he pulled it out before it was ready. Maybe it was ready to come out and he may have work a little harder and earlier than normal which caused the chewed look. Let us know if you will how he does tomorrow or in the next few days.

I meant to tell you before that Harley chewing toys is a good sign. Does he like small foot toys or things that would help him learn to use his beak on small things and encourage beak activities.

I meant to post this link before. Sorry my mind has been kind of off base for a few weeks and I just plain forgot.

On the left scroll down to chapter 10 - it's about feathers
http://www.netpets.com/birds/reference/lafeber/

[Jenn]

It's hard to see in the photo - I couldn't get a good macro of it... but he chewed it off. The end of it is all frayed where it came off.

I'm not dismissing what you've said... rather just clarifying. He has only "allowed" new feathers to grow in without chewing them off, in the last couple of months. When we first got him, he grew a few, but when they'd get about 3" long, he'd snip them off. This one was probably about 8", but it's new... all of his primary feathers are new, as he had none before.

We haven't really seen him snip one off for a while, but one of his tail feathers is rather abbreviated, I think he snipped it early on, before it got too long but it continued to grow... it's still there, just shorter than it should be, and the end of it looks snipped off.

I daresay that it will take some getting used to on his part, to have long feathers again - I'm amazed that his tail is as long as it is, even though it only consists of about 4 feathers. The first two he grew back in December/January broke... two long vunerable feathers alone didn't hold up well. When JT went to snip off the one that had broken midway and was just hanging there (in January), the whole feather pulled out on its own, and Harley looked really sad about it, but the other one kept growing. Very soon after, a few more started to grow - he snipped that other one early but it's nearly as long as the other 3 that started. I'm seeing a few sprouting feathers in the same area of his tail, so I'm hopeful that as the tail fills in there will be less stress on the feathers that are there. I think part of the problem may be over-preening of the feathers that are already there. If he should have 10 (?) feathers there, but he's only got 4, it could be that he's preening them as much as he would preen 10. I also imagine that regrowth may be itchy, prompting him to preen a lot.

I don't see him preening constantly... IMO he doesn't preen any more or less than my other birds, but he's got less surfaces to work with, if that makes any sense. Some of his feathers have chew marks.

Showers seem to be helping, he likes to shred that adding machine tape so I try to keep a good supply of that for him so he can rip at that instead of his feathers and that helps.

It's just a bit alarming to find one of those nice big feathers chewed off. I just hope it was an "isolated incident"... hoping that the big feathers keep coming faster than he's getting rid of them. I think in the past, he was gnawing them off just as soon as they'd come in.

His breast, back and head feathers have always been good. Since we've had him and keep him showered, now that he gets natural light and better diet, his overall feather condition has improved - his colours are more brilliant, and the texture of his feathers is smoother and shinier. Thankfully he's not a "plucker" (I've seen some photos of birds that pluck themselves about bald :( ) and so I guess aesthetically this is the lesser of 2 evils, but I just want him to have his full set of feathers, smooth and beautiful.

I guess the root of my angst is "why"... Why did he snip that one off?

I may never figure that one out...

Jenn

[Jenn]

Oh and about Harley and toys... if you can recommend any foot toys I'll try them (homemade is OK...) I bought a couple but I think they were a bit small for him, and my conures aren't interested in them. He's such an acrobat that every toy becomes a foot toy, but he's definitely an oral bird... everything goes into his mouth.

He likes leather kabobs with strips of leather and wooden blocks. I bought him that coconut treat hiding toy that I posted in another thread, he has nibbled on the coconut and chewed some of the blocks off the bottom. I hid treats inside but I didn't check yet to see if he got them (dried fruits and a few pistachios)... inside the coconut are some knots of cotton rope so he'll have to forage to find the treats. He did flip the coconut open fairly fast, but I'm not sure if he discovered the treats.

I hang a new adding machine tape about once a week. Typically he chews it down before he unravels all the paper. I usually use a piece of leather or cotton rope that got ripped off another toy to hang it. This time I used a piece of hemp jewellry cord (purchased at Michael's craft store)... no dye.. and I had some large plastic beads from a toy-making kit, and I dusted off my ancient Macrame skills. Ironically he hasn't managed to chew that one down off its hanger yet! Guess my macrame is better than I thought :) Yesterday he was actually hanging upside down, swinging off the hanger I'd fashioned for the paper. I'll replace it today - the paper is about gone. Not sure if I can salvage the beads, but I'll figure something out.

As for "foot toys"... I have determined that Harley has a foot fetish. If I am there in sandals, he'll climb down onto the floor to play with my toes (he's also expressed interest in customers' toes...). I've also mentioned that he loves kids... a kid in sandals is too much for him to resist! I'm always there to intervene, I never let him have contact with other people or their toes, as I'm worried that he'll bite... I gently intervene and move him back to his cage or the T-stand. He's nibbled my toes a bit hard at times, and then he'll say, "OUCH! Stop it!"... as if he knows he's "tasting" a bit too hard.

He does go walkabout in the store occasionally, but 9 times out of 10 it's either to chase toes, or follow a child. I let him nibble my toes but nobody else's.

I think in some ways he's learning to communicate his wishes. Since I'm not the best at bird body language, he's learning to use more words in context. He came to us with a reasonable vocabulary (the OUCH, stop it! was in his repertoire when we got him), and he's picked up things that we have said to him and he repeats them.

For example... when I greet him in the morning, he often comes up to me at eye level in his cage and says, "What?" (We sometimes say this to him when he's fussy!) So I'll keep talking to him saying good morning or whatever. He also has learned to say, "Whatever!" in the same inflection that a teenager would say if she were rolling her eyes ;)

When I've had to wrangle him on the floor, I often say, "Come on, Harley, or Come here Harley"... I've heard him tell me, "Come here" when he wants to entertain me for a while - so I oblige.

He also knows how to say "Step up" but he only usually says it when I'm retrieving him off the floor on one of his walkabouts. He has never asked me for "Step up" while he's on his cage. I think he's said it to JT when JT is moving him from his cage, but I'm not completely certain of that.

He also likes to play head-butting games with JT. I'm not sure I like this... but JT does, and obviously Harley does. It's gentle horseplay, and Harley seems to realize that only JT appreciates this kind of game. JT is tall, so Harley can stand on top of the cage and peck at JT's head, and JT "butts" him back. Even if I wanted to play that game (and I don't) I'm not tall enough.

I guess Harley is trying to teach us... I know, Jim, you aren't a big fan of 'parlour tricks'... but all the vocalizations that Harley is picking up, he's picking up on his own... we don't stand there for hours repeating stuff, he hears things, learns to mimic them, and figures out what vocalization is appropriate for his wants. Like when I started saying, "mmmm" when I gave him a reward then asking him if it was good. It was idle chatter to him on my part, trying to use my voice to soothe him, then he said it to me one day when I was eating my lunch... I heard the voice behind me say, "Mmmm is it good?" (and I gave him a bit of my sandwich!) Now when we change out his food and water, he stands there in anticipation saying, "Mmmm!" When I said "Shhhh" to try to soothe him while I was petting him, he started saying, "Ssssss" and now if he wants me to pet him he'll come up to the side of the cage near me and say, "Sssss".

I suppose I've been a bit long-winded this morning :) I just want to learn so much more about the species, and about what makes this individual bird tick, I figure that sharing as much information as possible is the best way to get the feedback I need to keep Harley moving forward :)

Thanks for reading all this!

Jenn

[parrotgirl]

Jenn, I am so sorry to hear about Harley chewing his feather, I was really rooting for him.


He is a real character, reading your post and all he says and does has had me in stitches.:rofl: What a love he is.:wub:

[Jim]

Hi Jenn

I enjoy your posts. Not too long winded for me. Hmmmmmm..... Think I need to straighten out my saying "I'm not a big fan of parlor tricks" I do believe I usually say "my birds don't know many parlor tricks". I'm a firm believer in trick training. My training, my necessity, is training tricks like "not" chewing the cabinets, not flying into the windows, or out the door when it opens, recall... I call it learning behavior. Tricks are learning a behavior. Same thing different needs I guess.

About the toy question. Sounds like Harley may be similar to my guys when it comes to toys. They love foot toys maybe more than the big tear them up type toys. I give them things like 2 - 3 quick links put together like a chain. They love to unscrew them and take them apart. They have what's called treasure chests in their room thay really like too. It's an acrylic chest looking thing on a chain that hangs. Larger holes in the top for filling with smaller round, square and triangle holes on the sides. They love to try and get the broken up toy pieces I put in there. They have to figure out how to turn the piece to get it out. It's funny watching that look on there face of thinking while the beak and tongue are working on getting it out. Seems like once they get it out they are so happy to have it they chew on it for awhile. I put nuts and treats in some times also.

Now I'm getting long winded. Eh! Anyway if you looked at the the link he talks about birds learning to use their break for more than destroying, which I agree with. Basically I give them things that takes some finesse to get apart and play with to off set thinking everything needs destroying.

How did Harley do today feather wise?

[Jenn]

Meant to reply yesterday but busy got in the way :)


No new chewing so far. He was busy yesterday, took a lot of walkabouts around the store. Funny, some days he stays on or in his cage, other days you have to watch or he's off wandering. He never strays too far.. with warmer weather more people are wearing sandals and there are oh so many toes to explore! :roflmao2:

Yesterday I gave him my McDonald's carton with a couple of french fries and a piece of bun hidden in it for a treat. He didn't understand it at first - I have done this only once before, last year (I don't give him much "junk" food...). I showed him the box and he wasn't terribly interested. I opened it and showed him that there were treats inside, he wanted me to just hand him the treats (sharight!). I ended up putting the box on the floor with one fry on top of it. He came down, ate the fry, then he figured out there was more stuff in the box, so he poked it. It slid around on the floor but eventually he poked his beak through it.

I cheated a bit, when he went back up on his cage, I handed him the box, and he held it with his foot and then pried it open.. treats fell on the floor (doh!). I put the treats back into the semi-open box and he rummaged for them.

I took a few pictures. He gobbled the treats, but had some more fun with the box. He dropped it a couple of times, climbed down and got it. The last picture is of him climbing back up after having dropped the box halfway back up!

He's having a quiet day today (knock on wood). The store is quiet and it's just me and the fids (and the fishes) here for now. Hopefully it will be busier later ... I hate slow days!

Jenn

[Jim]

Jenn

I don't know if you realize it or not but this is GREAT!!! Not only did he work for food, which is natural and what they need to do IMO, you also taught him a trick using positive reinforcement. Now that he knows the behavior that will earn a reward you should put it on cue. Something like teaching him to say Big Mac when you ask what he wants and place it on the counter for him to get. What a nice game that would be for both of you. The sky is the limit once the process starts.

Love the pictures.

Nice to hear things are going well. Keep up the good work Harley! Your mom loves you.

[Jenn]

Well I have been paying attention to your posts about forraging :)

He's very quiet today (no screaming to speak of) but he's not in a friendly mood either. I wanted to give him a shower, but he refused to step up and lunged at me... so I walked away. I've had some chatter with him and he's in the other room vocalizing, he babbles a lot in a quieter voice. When I approached him he lunged, stood on the door of the cage for a bit, and when I tried to coax him to step up verbally, he went inside his cage and proceeded to shovel his food onto the floor with his beak (tantrum?) At that I just walked away... but he can always see me.

I decided not to push the shower issue - I'm not going to force him. We can shower him another time. He always steps up from the cage for JT. He seldom does for me, but he'll always step up for me from the floor, the stand, the counter or anyplace *other* than his cage. I figure he's cage-protective and JT is a bit braver than me, and Harley knows this. Score one for the bird here - he knows he's one-up on me.

Question... on his walkabouts he rarely comes into this room. My shop is 2 stores joined together by a walk-through. Harley is in the other room but he can see me from here. He's about 30 or so feet away. In all this time I halfway expected (hoped) he'd come walkabout over to me. He never does. Once or twice he's wandered into this room (it's carpeted) the room he's in is vinyl flooring. I've never sensed he didn't like one surface or another... I just figured if he wanted to be with me and I'm not close enough, he'd come to visit - but he never has. Is there anything to this? Or is he just happier on his own in/on his cage?

He seems content for the most part to sit on or in his cage. The door has been open all day, and it's usually open when it's quiet here. When it gets busy, we do close his door so to keep him from harm (and keep him from harming others).

My conures have been a noisy pair today... you'd laugh if you heard it... but it's nice to have Harley using his "quiet voice" for a change :)

Jenn

[Jim]

I wouldn't think there is anything to the different surfaces since you say he has on occasion wandered into the other room. Knowing the little about his past that you have posted, I would bet it's more of a confidence/feel safe issue. He's probable exploring little by little and will expand his world at the rate he feels comfortable with. Which, BTW, sounds like you are allowing him to do since you say you aren't pushing things or asking too much. Great!!!
He's going to trust you more and more every day.:agree:

Hope I don't sound like I'm telling or preaching here but I love thinking and talking about behavior issues. If you want we could try to come up with a plan to work on the not coming out of the cage for you. That would be frustrating to me and a worry that if I had to get him out in an emergency I would have a fight on my hands.

My birds have different moods on different days so I think he's just being a bird. That's no biggie too me. If you haven't figured it out by now I'm 100% for trust building. As long as it's not a behavior that is driving you crazy letting him have his moods is building trust and confidence. He can be Harley and you're still there for him.

In your other post you said about him playing head-butting games with JT. I read a lot about not starting things like that, but... I play rough house games with the boys all the time. IMO, relationships are more than cuddles, feeding, petting, playing games... As long as it's Okay with the two of them I think it's another good (here's that word again) trust building experience.

Foraging is great and starts a thought process of - I can do things for myself. Works with more than finding food. Independence actually makes a better companion (even human) as long as they have positive history with us.;)

[amazing greys]

Jenn & Jim, I have to say reading all of this is wonderful information and understanding of Macaws. :thumbup:


Jenn, I am so happy Harley is opening up and exploring more (except those toes, roflol). He really looks like he is enjoying his play/foraging times, so the rest of the behaviors will all fall into place.....I just know it. As you both increase in trust for each other, he should someday allow you to get him from his cage. You are doing so well with working on the issues he has come with and I commend you on your perseverance to making it work for the both of you :highfive:

I have learned alot from Jim and this discussion will help me when the time comes for my B&G to come home ;)

Please keep going with your updates and such with Harley.......oh, and give him some pets for me :heart:

[parrotgirl]

I too have learned so much from Jim with all his knowledge.


I have to admit that this Positive reinforcement was a mystery to me at one point but I am finding that Bucc relates really well to it. So I may be picking your brains for more info on PR soon. If you don't mind that is Jim.

Jenn, I think you have done wonders for Harley since he came to you keep up the good work, he is a real darling.

[Jenn]

I appreciate the good dialogue here and perhaps one day this thread can help others - it appears that it already is :) Jim - you aren't 'preachy' at all - I'm asking questions because I want to learn, and you've got the knowledge I'm seeking, so I thank you, and everyone who offers support and encouragement for sharing it. Hope you don't mind my picking at your grey matter all the time ;)

I can't take all the credit for Harley's progress... JT deserves it as much as I do. And Harley's "fan club"... regular visitors who come in and talk to him and interact with him - it sure keeps him entertained and it's loads more attention than he was receiving at this time last year when he was stuck in a dark basement, that's for sure. Eric doesn't work for me anymore but he's my neighbour and he's had a lot of time spent with Harley too - last summer when I first got him Eric shared his lunch with Harley every day - bite for Eric, bite for Harley LOL! He still comes in from time to time to play with him.

I can live with Harley's moods. The other day when he was quiet, I enjoyed that... but was a bit puzzled by his unfriendliness, but just let it go. Today he had a good soaking shower, took a ride on JT and had lots of people chatting to him. I was out for a few hours midday so I didn't do a whole lot with him today. I did take pictures during his shower though!

I remembered I have another neat forraging toy. I took a picture of it, but I'm posting from home now, I'll post the toy pic tomorrow if I can. My friend gave me the toy, it was originally purchased for her tiels, but it's much too big for them and the tiels never expressed an interest in it. It's a bit smaller than a coffee cup, clear acrylic... with a slot in it... you'll see it when I post a pic. He can *see* the treats I put in - dried fruit and a few nuts. JT said he played with it a bit today but didn't exactly figure out how to work it (good!). I think this one is a bit more of a challenge to him, because it's not easy to break, and it's clear so he can see inside it. He'll really have to ponder how to work the food out of it. Hopefully that one will stand up to some abuse - must ask my friend where she got that one, because I may want to buy another one.

I'd also made him another macrame paper hanger, but he broke the plastic ring immediately. I re-hung it on a carabiner and he's working the paper like a toddler in a bathroom with the toilet paper... hehehe. I swept up a huge pile of adding machine paper off the floor this morning.

I do hope he comes walking in to the showroom to see me at some point. He does do it occasionally in the fish room where his cage is, but mainly he'll get down to follow kids (that's when I'm there to intervene). One day last week I was trying to catch a fish in a tank close to his cage and I felt a tongue on my heel! So he will come to see me *if* I'm close enough.

No more chewed feathers (knock on wood) so far, but his wings still have a lot of holes in them from chewed or missing feathers. It's taking a long while for new ones to sprout. Once they do they seem to grow rather quickly though.

I won't fret about the head butting games - Harley seems to understand that only JT appreciates that kind of thing. I think JT is less fearful of Harley than I am. I need to up my own confidence level a bit with him - he doesn't give nearly as much grief to people who are more accustomed to handling big birds (like my vet, and a few friends who have macaws or greys), I'm sure Harley has me pegged, and he uses that to his advantage. I think JT has an easier time asking him to step up from the cage simply because Harley knows he's not going to take any guff from him. He knows I'm likely to back down. Not that we're trying to force anything on him, but like you said, Jim, there are times when he needs to be moved (to clean his cage or change toys etc, or to shower him) when we'd like it if he went calmly. I suppose we'll get to that point. As of now, if JT isn't there, and I don't absolutely need him to step up, I don't push it - sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. If I need to move him and he won't do it for me, he will do it for JT. Guess he has his favourites too :)

He likes JT for the rough stuff, but he likes me for the scritches and quiet time. His latest thing is a booty scratch - he loves it when I scratch his back just at the base of the tail. He even lets me do that on his cage, he'll lean forward with his tail in the air for me to scratch him more. He's such an attention hog :)

Jenn

[Jim]

Glad people are enjoying this thread. I know I am.

Thanks Barb, Those big ole' Macaw beaks leave you little choice but to use PR if you don't want to get bitten.

Peta wrote:
I have to admit that this Positive reinforcement was a mystery to me at one point but I am finding that Bucc relates really well to it. So I may be picking your brains for more info on PR soon. If you don't mind that is Jim.

Jim writes:
Bucc is smart and knows a good thing when it appears:) - glad he is responding to it well. I don't mind talking PR at all Peta. Be warned tho, I get going so you or others need to keep me in check.

Jenn, Sounds like a good foraging toy. What I meant about the 'coming out of cage' was more along the lines of him *wanting to* no matter what most of the time. Not that what you seem to be doing doesn't work but there are ways to condition the step-up with no dominance issues or pushing, to where it becomes almost habit.

[Jenn]

Care to expand on that Jim? Any suggestions on how to encourage him to "want to" even if he doesn't?

I do concur that the cage-protectiveness he exhibits is a safety issue. He has always known that his cage is his kingdom. It's the one constant that I think he's probably had since a very young age. To the best of my knowledge he's had the same cage since his first keeper, or at the very least, he's had it for a very long time, given the condition it was in when we got it. It's in good repair but one can tell that it's not "new". He's most comfortable in it/on it for his various acrobatics. Even when his balance was iffy when he had no feathers and no tail for "ballast", he's always been extremely nimble on it, climbing up it, around it, over it, he's got the skill of a gymnast when he's on his cage, but outside it he often seems unsure and shaky, even now.

We've been meaning to build or buy him a gym or manzanita tree, but haven't got around to it (or money to do it...). We did try putting him in a small sturdy tree in the yard once but he didn't like that at all. Too unfamiliar to him I guess, he really seemed out of his element so we took him down again. I'd like to make a PVC gym for him... I have PVC hanging around the shop ;) Just don't know if he'd like to use it.

Jenn

[Jim]

Jean wrote:
Care to expand on that Jim? Any suggestions on how to encourage him to "want to" even if he doesn't?

Jim writes:
Sure will. My pleasure. I'll do it tonight or tomorrow, don't have the time right now to type it up properly. FWIW your 2nd paragraph about cage-protectiveness is a very good analysis on your part - very preceptive observation.

On a side note, maybe Dr C. can help out a little if she has the time and reads this thread. Not to change the subject but think about her pics of Shelby flying free where Shelby has a choice to go where she darn will pleases. Shelby's choice is to come to her and even other humans.That's a statement in it's self about PR. I would assume that being with Dr C is more rewarding than the wide open spaces. Dr C has NO control over Shelby once she's in the air. Pretty cool behavior IMO. That's what we we'll try to build in Harley. His choice to be with you over the safety of the cage. Sound Cool!?!?!

[Jenn]

Yep, sounds VERY cool :) I eagerly await your further musings on the subject.

Harley stayed inside today - he was in a "mood"... very hostile toward his hanging paper roll. That and we had customers so we didn't have a lot of opportunity to let him out and play.

I've got the bug to make a pvc gym for him... we bought some stuff a while back to make one, but ended up using most of the pvc in the shop (installing aquariums uses tons of pvc!

I've been googling for DIY plans for a bird gym. I've seen some nice pictures online, got some ideas... been waiting for help to build one *cough* (JT) but unless I drag him along to build one, I want to do it on my own.

I have PVC cutters, hemp cord, and some PVC fittings, and I know where to get more at Home Depot - I just want to be sure I can build a base that's solid enough to support a Macaw doing a trapeze act from it :)

I've seen pictures online, but need something a bit more idiot-proof than going from a diagram. Any suggestions here? PVC Bird Gyms for Dummies ....

Jenn

[parrotgirl]

Jim writes:
Bucc is smart and knows a good thing when it appearshttp://thebirdforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif - glad he is responding to it well. I don't mind talking PR at all Peta. Be warned tho, I get going so you or others need to keep me in check.


Thanks Jim, that will be great, he is really responding great to this so I want to learn as much as possible, so please you "get going" as much as possible and I can handle it if everyone else can. I am really keen to learn and I am a very good student when it comes to my fids. Thanks again Jim.

Jenn sorry to butt into your thread I have really enjoyed reading all about Harley so please keep us updated on how he and you are getting on.

[Jim]

Hi Jenn and all

So we can get on the same page with this stuff I think I need to give a short explanation of how this stuff works. The Skinner Box was the beginning of operant conditioning that we'll reference a lot to look at what we are doing and how Harley is responding. OK

My simple explanation. A box for rats with a lever that when touched gave food and electrodes that could give a small shock. The rat learned quickly that touching the lever gave the reward. He would repeat this willingly and willingly go in the box. When the shock was used to drive or force the rat to the lever the rat was slow at learning and didn't want to go in the box. This isn't exact but it's how it worked with out all the detail. Since science is self correcting by it's nature others used this model to proof or disproof his theory with different animals and conditions. Today we have knowledge of how behavior works across all species and the effects force has on the subject like aggression, avoidance, depression and stress, to name a few.

With that said we want Harley to be a *willing* participant in living with you and doing things so we need to remove as much force as we can (lets call it adversities - it sounds better) and apply as much PR (positive reinforcement) as possible. I believe you use PR already but sometimes when we think about the box we might see things we could do differently. The general way I see being told to get a non complainant bird to step up is to push lightly into the lower chest until the bird has to step up. If he wants to bite, distract him with a toy to beak at. Hmmmmm..... I call this force that could have side effects like aggression or avoidance. Is anyone that is reading thinking about the box right now? Would you say my make believe bird is a willing participant in stepping up?

Honesty and clear communication are key to training/teaching. No being dishonest or trickery when training please. It confuses the bird, causes poor communication and lack of trust. Had to say this because it's a lesson I learned the hard way.

First thing I would do is teach Harley that the word good or click (a clicker) means reward is coming. Every time I gave him a treat, no behavior necessary, I would click or say good before the treat was given. He'll learn quickly that good/click = treat. Next I would *capture* his *willing* step up, like from the floor. I know he wants up and is willing so I would, as he approached say - up - when up - good/click - and reward with a fav treat. I use treats in the beginning, they're a primary reinforcer so there is no guessing as to whether the reward is rewarding. This would be my start to making step up a conditioned behavior and move forward *slowly* to him doing this *willingly* any place any time.

Okay you're up.:D Ask away and I hope this wasn't so long it became boring or confusing.

[amazing greys]

ok, I will give my input on getting them to step up as we did with Akeela and has shown positive results and a trusting relationship, just as you described above, the normal methods that are being taught.


I believe using that method can be positive if rewarded properly. Maybe it took a couple times like that method to show the bird that stepping up isn't all that bad, and that there's nothing to fear. Since I have always rewarded, there's positive coming out, even if you help with gentle guidance. Sure, we don't want to actually use physical force, but with that gentle guidance, how else is that bird going to step up for you if he doesn't know 'how'.

Now, mind you I'm speaking of a CAG that is pretty much well adjusted, not from a Macaw that has issues and such that the caregiver needs to establish that trust factor.

I do believe in Jenn's case, that what you are saying applies since she is working on that trust relationship.

[Jenn]

Hi Jim, and all,

I'm not sure how much time I have to respond right now... but I do remember "Skinnerian" theories/applications from psyche class back in college, about 100 years ago :)

To some extent I have been using PR when working with Harley. We do say, "Good Bird!" whenever he does what we ask of him, but it has not always come with a food reward. I have done this sometimes however, when we first got him when he was being nice and sociable, I'd offer him a pistachio (seems to be his fave) and say, "Mmmm" When he took it, I'd ask him, "Is that good?" Within a couple of weeks when he saw me eating lunch he asked me, "Mmmm is that good?" (he wanted my food!), so at the very least he identifies "Mmmm" with food. He says this too when we change out his food dishes.

Question -- as it is now, all our birds always have a dish of food available. Would it be a smarter thing to remove Harley's food for periods of time when we're trying to work with him? Then he will associate US with food.. and sort of play on the survival instinct? He relies on us for food... therefore he may bend his will a bit? Not suggesting to deprive him at all, just change the way we do things. Or am I off-base on that?

We do laud on the praise when he does something "right". He knows what "step up" means - he'll say it when he's on the floor, when I'm asking him to step up (my conures say this too it's funny when one tells the other to step up!).

I'm sort of struggling to find a good "starting point" of where to take his existing behaviors/conditioning, and build on it. Does that make any sense? He's still somewhat inconsistent. If I had a consistent behavior that I'd observed and could use that as a sure thing for a starting point, I think I'd be able to work with him more effectively. However as it is, one day he'll be "textbook" well behaved, the next day (or the next hour) he's back to being ornery.

I'm going to give over the computer to JT for a while - I've got him in the mood to plan/build a play gym for Harley so I need to strike when the iron is hot LOL!

More later from me, and I will look for more ideas/suggestions here.

I can't help but feel that at some point if we can get Harley's proverbial light bulb to come on, we can help him become a most awesome companion. He's already partway there - he's very sweet despite his moods - it's about us learning how to effectively communicate with him, and to be able to read him better.

In the last 11 years I've learned a ton about dog behavior after struggling with puppy training etc., with the dog I've had for the last 11 great years, I did a bit of homework and learned *how* to show my dog what I want from her, and she's so eager to please, that once we got the communication thing down... she's a most excellent, well-behaved companion. Birds are different but I think the underlying "psychology" is somewhat the same... just like I got along well with my neighbour's dog that had "issues"... now that I know a good bit of "dogspeak", I know there aren't bad dogs, just bad handlers. I think this applies with Harley too - once that trust is earned (both ways), and once we can figure out what each other wants/needs of each other, I think it will go a lot more smoothly!

Jenn

[Jim]

Lets break the method down into the smallest pieces we can.

1) If the bird can move from one perch to another it can step up - it knows how.

2) I think pushing even lightly against the bird to get a step up is force not guidance. My opinion, since I can't know what the bird thinks or feels, it's step up or be pushed off balance or even off the perch. Isn't that really what is happening or at least what we want the bird to perceive. Fear, force, fear of falling, are all perceived until the event happens. I don't think anyone pushes them off the perch but the bird has no way of knowing we won't. Besides if we except that choice is the most positive means and least intrusive we're not giving the bird a choice with this method. I don't know maybe the bird steps up so we aren't touching his chest. How knows. It's still pushing or force whatever we call it to me.

3) Example (granted a poor one) that is the extreme side of the spectrum with no force needed to step on something that the bird may perceive as dangerous or be fearful of. A 100% totally hormonal male bird that hates hands and bites the snot out them wants to get to the prettiest little female bird that ever grew feathers.:) The only way to get to her is stepping onto my hand to cross the void between them. If he wants that pretty little thing bad enough he will step across the void. Ya never know he may even learn that the hand wasn't so bad and do it faster and easier the next time. It's all about finding the right reinforcer that will give the bird enough motivation. Bird's choice with no force. Maybe after a few times he would step across for a lesser reward like a pine nut?

Yes agreed, Jenn's Harley has a past that needs to be considered as she works but each day or interaction at this point needs to start with a clean slate. At least I think.

Good post Barb :agree: and this is exactly the kind of things I think are fun to discuss and need to be. Plus we all learn and can make our own knowledgeable choices.;) :D

[amazing greys]

Jim, I agree with not forcing, to teach the general idea of stepping up is one thing, but to force them to step up (unless for safety issues) is not giving them a choice.


Once we taught Akeela, she pretty much let us know that she "want to go for a walk" or "come 'ere" and would raise her foot. I ALWAYS ask her if she would like to go somewhere. If she shows no motion to go, I leave her be. Now unless I have to leave and I must get her to go in her cage so I say 'gotta go bye bye'. Most times she complies, if she is up high on her play top and shows no motion to step up, I wiggle my other hand as if to say "c'mon" and she'll step up.

I believe in choices, but I also believe in establishing some communication factors as to what is expected.

[Jim]

Jenn

About the feeding. No you're not off base in your thinking. First a quote by Dr C. in the vaccinations thread of her forum.

Dr C wrote: Frankly, I see many more birds sick now from *poor nutrition* and husbandry than contagious disease.

Okay that's my disclaimer, not for you personally, but for the whole. As long as the bird has all he wants to eat in a day I see no problem. I don't care for the once a day feeding but you didn't say that. Food not available all day does make the food more rewarding and training before feeding is a good time to train. BTW I feed twice a day with a set amount of seed and pellet available all day. Playing on the survival instinct and relying on humans for food works and I know it's used by some. For me it would make me wonder if I'm training properly or is the bird preforming the request for fear of losing the food source. Make sense? I'm thinking along the lines of an easy thing to fall into. Say... like thinking the bird does what we ask and is on us because he likes us but really it's because he wants us for food. What I do is hold back favorite treats to use as training treats.

I'm more the person that enjoys a bird that comes to me and does a few things, because he wanted to. That makes me feel good inside thinking he could go anywhere he wanted but is with me or doing something I ask. A bird seeing me as a means of food for survival wouldn't work for me. That's me though.

Ok the starting place. Targeting (touching a stick) is always good but you ask about building on existing behaviors. I like that myself, It's good for both of you. What does he do that you would like him to do more consistent? That's a good place to start.

[Jenn]

Hmmm... more 'food for thought'. I don't think I'll change from the way I'm feeding him now then. I don't want to create an adversarial situation.

Gonna ponder his behavior and be a bit more observant for consistencies and let you know from there.

We're also working on a gym for him too :)

Jenn

[Jenn]

Alright... consistent behavior...

Might as well start at the beginning... the beginning of the day, that is.

Each day when I come to the shop, it's customary for me to greet Harley, and he always comes up close to me and greets me. Sometimes it's verbal, sometimes it's not (on his part). I always talk and chatter to him. He comes up close about eye level with me on his perch or on the side of the cage, and he starts head-bobbing.

I open the cage door, he comes out on it - he's quite good at swinging the door open to get maximum reach. He is apt to lunge if he feels he's in range, so I always stand just out of beak range. The head-bobbing goes on, and usually he makes a "fist" with one foot, and looks like he's hitting himself in the mouth while bobbing his head. This usually results in him regurgitating a bit. I interpret this to mean, "Hi, I like you" in birdspeak :)

At this point I usually offer scritches. Now until not too long ago, it was hit and miss with scritches while on the cage, but he really likes a booty scratch - on his back right where his tail meets his back. He'll lean forward with his head down and his tail in the air, for me to scratch him there. He'll even say "sssss" (he learned this when I say, "shhh" to soothe him), or he'll click to me - another sound I've made in affection/comfort toward him. I'll scratch him gently and talk to him. Sometimes during this he'll lunge - usually it's a fake-out. I just avoid the potential bite, and when he tips his tail in the air again, I tell him he's a good bird and scratch again.

He does not step up for me from the cage. I usually don't try. I need to clean his cage, which I'll do shortly - I usually get JT to remove him for this exercise, he'll get him to step up and put him on the t-stand and otherwise entertain him while I do the dirty work *g*. I can clean his cage sometimes with him in it, but he always interferes with me, and changing or moving toys is next to impossible for me to do with him there, as he will bite me. Safety first for all of us - we just move him out til the cage is ready again for him.

Right now he's on top of his cage, talking to himself - he can see me and I can see him, but he's doing his thing. I just got here to work a little while ago but I'm always in first thing in the morning for a while. I didn't let him out this morning, but we had our usual morning greeting. Mondays the shop is closed and Tuesday it opens at 4 - but as I said we're here in the mornings, but in and out through the day. For the rest of the week every day we're here early until after 8 at night - this routine has been normal for him since we've had him.

Any suggestions going forward from here? His allowing me to give scritches and his encouraging me to do so with "ssss" is a good start... so how can I encourage a bit more from that point, without pushing? Or should I just let it evolve on its own? Like I said, until fairly recently, me touching him on the cage was just a bad idea, period, but now he actually prompts me to do so.

Jenn

[Jim]

I can see you and Harley in the morning.:) Cute!

Suggestions. As before you need to find a favorite treat (small piece) and not something free feed in the cage. Something he only gets from you. EVERY time you give it to him say good or click *before* you give it. Good/click needs associated with - treat is coming. I'm not promoting junk food, BUT for now as long as it's not in large amounts and it gets good attention I would do it.

Another suggestion. Since he head bobs when he sees you that's a fun behavior to capture. Have the treat with you out of sight but easy/fast to get. Hiding in your hand/fist is good. Timing well come in time but for now as best you can right before or as some as he starts to bob his head say 'Harley Like'. When he's done say 'good' or click then treat. And I want to see a post in a few days/weeks that you have Harley at the counter showing him what someone bought asking 'Harley Like' and he bobs yes.;) :emot-danc

I would also during the day when Harley is playing/being good on his cage (no cue needed here) simply walk to him and say 'good' and treat. Builds association with good = treat plus that playing and being good will earn a reward.

One more thing and really lets not worry about it for now. You guys are doing too good to complicated things.:agree: Rubbing at the base of the tail is a mating thing for macaws. I'm not worried about it for now and don't think you need to be.

[Jenn]

Rubbing at the base of the tail is a mating thing for macaws. I'm not worried about it for now and don't think you need to be.


Maybe he thinks I'm hitting on him! :eek:

I only started doing that since he got tail feathers growing - I figured he was just itchy from the new feathers... now I hope I'm not sending him confusing signals -- I only want to be friends :roflmao2:

Thanks for putting the behavior/verbal cue/reward thing in order for me. That helps.

Head-bobbing - he does it constantly. I'm watching him right now he's alone on the door of his cage, with the fisted foot to his mouth again.. he's been doing it all morning. It's funny when people walk by either outside the window or inside the store - he bobs for almost anybody, and they bob right back. It's amazing how many people Harley has trained. It's hysterical to see a group of adults walking by, only to stop and have them all bobbing their heads up and down. He does it, they do it. Talk about conditioned response - a shrink would have a field day here analyzing all the people that stop to bob their heads up and down!!!

I'll definitely try your suggestion and see where it goes from there :)

Jenn

[Brandy]

whew, I just read all 8 pages!!!

you're doing an amazing job with Harley Jenn, hes some lucky to have found you :)

[Jenn]

Heh Brandy - it's a lot of reading isn't it? Brevity is not my strong suite :)

OK Jim - I think I've turned a light bulb on... here's what we're doing today...

Harley likes baked potato. I often have that with lunch and I usually save him a bit.

So following your advice, today when I approached him to give him his "fix", I asked him to "Come here" (to the edge of his open cage door). He saw the potato treat, so he happily obliged, saying, "Mmmm". I repeated that... "Mmmm" then clicked and said "Good Boy" and gave him a bit. He ate it, saying "Mmm is it good?" This is his usual response to a treat.

I did the same a bit later - walked up to the cage, he was inside. I said, "Come here" and tapped the door of the cage where I wanted him to come. He saw the treat.. came out straight away. He said, "Mmm" again. I repeated that, clicked, said "Good boy" and gave him another bit.

A little while ago, he called me from the other room... "Come here"... so I came with more potato, and we went through the same exercise.

It's later now - I started this post then got busy with customers. Since then I've repeated the same exercise a few more times with Harley. I approach when he's in the cage, tap the spot where I'd like him to be on his door, and he comes out. When he does, I say, "Good boy", click, and give him some potato.

He also decided to take a walkabout on the floor and nibbled my toe with a bit too much enthusiasm... then he said "OUCH" as I did... OY! No potato reward for that, but when I called him back up on the cage door again, he came back up and did get a reward.

How's that for a start?

That spot on the cage door is his usual "greeting place" for me... but for me to ask him to come out to it and him to respond immediately is a step toward his associating "good behavior" with a reward, methinks.

Thoughts?

Jenn

[Jenn]

OK Baked potato is the magic formula :) The reward consists of a piece of baked potato about pea-sized.

I repeated this exercise a few more times... only this time, instead of Harley's usual spot on the cage door, I asked him to "come here" to different spots on top of the cage. I tapped the spot I wanted him to come to, said "come here" and when he did, told him good boy, clicked and he got his bit of potato. I did this in about 3 different places on top of the cage, places he doesn't usually go for attention - just random spots on the cage, NOT where he was at the time that I asked him to "come here".

Giant leap forward, IMO. He did as I asked, when I asked.

Mmmm is it good? (LOL!)

Jenn

[Shirley]

That's a huge leap forward, Jenn! Now it's a FUN thing for him to react to your cues and get the treats and he'll want to play more games, learn more things, and your bond and trust will grow by leaps and bounds...!! Yippeee!

Holly loves to do clicker training! It's like a huge "all attention is on Holly" time for her.

Congratulations to you and Harley! :dance:

[Brandy]

wow thats great Jenn

I really have to start getting into this tricker training

[Jenn]

Well I don't have a "clicker"... I'm the clicker ;) Back 100 years ago when I used to play with a pet store Scarlet Macaw I used to visit daily, he used to click to the people he liked, and I picked up the habit. I've always used that sound as a soother to my birds - and Harley learned to mimic the sound. He says "ssss" and he clicks just like I do when we're having a moment. Almost like he's telling me he's calm... if that makes any sense.

Yes, I think we made some breakthrough progress yesterday. We all know macaws are smart... he caught on to my ideas faster than I thought he would. It really is simple bribery *g* but just the fact that he understood what I was asking of him made a big difference, and he was quick to respond. Once I moved to a different part of the cage to ask him to go there, it took only a minute or two for him to understand what he had to do to get his bit of potato, and he just did it. Once or twice he looked at me as if to say, "OK, why do you want me over there? We just did that over here!" but he complied quite easily.

I know more complex ideas/behaviors will take more work than that was, but I'm going to focus on reinforcing this that he already seems to know, a bit more before I try to move on to something else.

Jenn

[Jim]

All right Jenn and Harley! :dance:

Ditto what Shirley said. They remind me of little kids that learn to do something and love the attention they get for doing it. This is theory but sounds like Harley fits. After all these years of a maybe not so good life, now that he has you that respects him, being his friend and communicating in positive ways, he is going to learn faster than a bird with less bad experience. When you've tasted vinegar a little sugar tastes pretty darn good. Hope that came out right.

I'm in a rush this morning but you're doing great. He's going pretty fast which is good but I want to talked with you about some things to watch for. Don't slow him down if he's willing to work. And by all means now that he is respecting your requests, Please!!! I can't say this enough, respect him when he tells you in bird language that he doesn't want to do something. Two way street.

Experience as shown me that when I respect them they respect me and are far more willing.

This made my morning.

[Jenn]

I'm eager to hear about what to watch for :) Yes, I think yesterday was exceptional. I do realize he's going to have "days" when he may be less willing and I'm going to be tuned in to that. Just like some days we don't feel like doing things, etc. I'll take my cues from him and see where he leads me :)

We've had our morning greeting - he's on top of his cage now just sort of having his quiet time before we get rolling here for the day.

After watching your movie with your B&G on the hoop with the string -- I can *see* the trust and bond you and Sharon have with the boys. They are so relaxed and confident with you. Harley is nowhere near that -- YET... May never be, given his history, however it's fascinating to see what these birds *can* be like.

I know each bird's personality is different too, and what they are willing to do varies. For example, Pepe, my female (?) conure loves to swing upside down from my hands. Woodstock HATES that. I accidentally played "swing" with the wrong bird once... and felt the pinch :( I'm sure the same thing applies from one macaw to another - what their "comfort zone" is will vary.

Going to try more of the same with Harley today and see how he responds, if he's in the mood for some work ;) I'll keep you posted!

Jenn

[parrotgirl]

:dance: :dance: That is great Jenn, A giant leap forward for the both of you.


Congrats to you both.

[Jenn]

My day is just winding down here. Tried a little session this morning with some peanut butter on a cracker (cut into bits)... messy and he doesn't seem to like it as much OR he just wasn't in the mood to work.

This afternoon, more bits of potato... we did the "come here" bit here and there on the top of the cage, and twice just now I coaxed him off the cage to come for his reward. Once I tried a bit beyond his "comfort zone" but when I moved closer again he came right down.

He was also letting me pet/scratch him on the cage a bit without lunging - so he got a treat for that too. He usually lets me scratch but he often lunges - more often he just "fakes me out" but I am always (usually) faster than he is :) on the retreat.

A good day again :) I'll try the floor bit again tomorrow. I did try a "step up" from the cage but he wouldn't go for that. That's OK, I only asked once and backed off when he made it clear that wasn't an option at this point. The fact that he came down onto the floor is a big one - he comes down when *he* wants to, but I haven't coaxed him down before. He wanted to - but I gave him the incentive this time!

Jenn

[Jim]

Hello Jenn - Sorry I've been so long getting back to you. It's been one of those weeks. Oh and thanks for the nice comment about the movie. You have good observation skills, you saw more than the fun they were having.

Here is a site I like that I think will help and keep me from typing so much here and probably getting lost in the translation. Clickersolutions (http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm)

Reading from the top would be best but what I want to bring special attention to is latency. It's in Advanced Clicker Training Techniques then Decreasing Latency, by Bob Bailey A quote for the article and why I like to get this straight at the beginning.

"First, rejoice! This is one of the few good thing in training that generalizes between behaviors. That is, get short latency on one behavior and, IF YOU DO IT RIGHT, it generalizes to the animals other trained behavior, at least to a considerable degree."

I can't find a link to Dr Susan Friedman's example of the pop machine - slot machine, maybe it's only in her doc.'s. Anyway I'll try to explain it, sorry if you have read this before from me. It's best, once the behavior is learned, to mix up the payoff/reward.

Pop machine - bird knows what it will get every time so the payoff may not be enough motivation or if the pop (reward) is not given the bird may stop giving the behavior. Make sense?

Slot machine - Varied payoffs so the subject will pull the handle in hopes of the jackpot. Jackpots (to me) are usually best after a well done behavior BUT not always. And always end training (or if playing and teaching) on a GOOD note. If need be ask for a behavior that he can do easy and reward before you walk away or stop teaching. Most of this you will have to see for yourself what works with Harley.

[Shirley]

Also, Clicker Training for birds sites:

This is Melinda Johnson's site - she wrote Clicker Training for Birds
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bird-Click/

http://www.parrotchronicles.com/novdec2004/clickertraining.htm

Under the photo on this site is a drop-down menu of various behaviors.
http://www.avi-train.com/cwb/behaviors.html

[Jenn]

Lots of reading to do :) I've started looking at Jim's link and I'll read the ones Shirley posted too. Lots of good info there from the bit of skimming I did earlier.

Interesting concepts - pop machine vs. slot machine :) I guess I used that approach when training my dog - at first she'd get a reward (treat) but then later, not always. There's always a reward of praise though... I suppose the slot machine concept gives the bird more freedom to choose whether he wants to do the behavior or not, not just simple bribery.

I'm sort of doing the same with Harley. Today he went through his "come here" paces without food - I have no baked potato today :) He willingly did what I asked, even though he could see I had no food with me. He's responding well and seems to enjoy the positive response he gets, whatever form that takes. Gee, could that be the "trust" building? :D I think it could be! I'm a bit more trusting of him... he still beaks me a lot and he still lunges sometimes, but when he does beak it's not with harsh intent. It's mostly playful, but sometimes he doesn't know his own strength I think. He came down to the floor when I asked him to, but he was a bit too firm with my toe again. I usually retreat before he really hurts me... but I tell him, "No bite". I'm quite sure I heard him say, "No" this morning. Hmmm he's proving more and more every day that a parrot is like a perennial 2-year-old!

He's also figured out a way to get my attention. He will climb outside the cage, unlatch the little doors that hold his food and water dishes in, and throw the food dish. He did it yesterday - well he tried, I caught him before he tossed the dish. He did it about 3 times so I took the dish away for a while.

This morning, we had a good "scritch" session, I went outside for a bit and I heard a "CLANG"...:doh: Yep, had to sweep up that mess. He nearly did it again when I cleaned it all up and had to see to a customer... but I went and stood at his cage for a while and played with him. Now he's having some quiet time inside his cage (door is open).

He wasn't all that willing to do much yesterday, so I just let it ride. Today he's extra affectionate - 2 big scritch sessions and a bit of play. He's funny about letting me scratch his head. However I've found that if I put one hand on his beak - not pinching, just gently on his beak with thumb and forefinger with one hand, he'll let me scratch his head with the other hand. For clarity, I'm not holding him still... or restraining him in any way, just keeping my hand in that position while I preen and scratch him. If I take the beak-holding hand away, he'll mock-nip me, but if I leave it there, he'll close his eyes, put his head back and talk quietly, he's obviously enjoying what I'm doing - but I was afraid he'd see my holding the beak as threatening. Just the opposite. Perhaps it's that he knows where my other hand is - I'm not going to "sneak up" and do anything funny while I'm petting him. During this he plays with his tongue on my fingers. I was worried that this exercise may be perceived as threatening to him but he keeps coming back for more and he really does seem to enjoy it... thoughts?

We hope to have his gym finished today... that little project has been back-burned a bit as we've been busy with other non-bird stuff the last few days. It's (painfully) quiet at the shop so far today so hopefully we'll get it done and pix will be posted. I've been wrapping the PVC perches in hemp cord, that seems to be working well as long as Harley doesn't discover how to untie it. I may hot-glue the ends on the undersides of the perch... unless that's not bird-safe... any ideas?

Jenn

[Junkzoo]

Good luck and congrats with the latest good news with Harley,,,,wishing you both the best!:thumbup:

[Jim]

Cool Jenn! I like that you and Harley are seeing more trust with each other.

Latency isn't talked about much, at least I don't see it, in birds unless it's show birds or flighted birds. Hence the link that is dog related. I think little to no latency in a few behaviors we deal with every day is safer for the birds and gives us and them a happier life. Sort of like a dog that knows come, stop/heal, stay. Step up, target, (go where I tap) stay and come (recall) are the ones that should have very little latency. IMO I think come/recall is a good thing to teach any bird. As I said above step up, target, stop, (I just say their name to get their attention), and stay are important.

I think hot glue is bird safe. What I do is when I get 3" - 4" from the end I lay the end of the cord on the PVC, wrap over it leaving an end to pull later, and wrap to the end. Pull the end under the wrap to tighten and cut off or stuff in wrapping The sisal I use stretches when washing and needs tightening. I'm thinking if you clue it you couldn't tighten it later.

[amazing greys]

They also say not to use the glue gun near the fids, as the fumes of the glue melting may not be good.

I use vet wrap on pvc, easy to change and can add different colors making it look neat. Maybe use hemp on one perch on the top or something. You can always mix it up.

Can't wait to see it when it's done ;)

Give Harley some scritches for me :wub:

[Jenn]

I saw vet wrap used in some stuff I saw online - where do you get it?

Jenn

[Jean]

Jenn, here is my source.

http://search.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/nsearch?catalog=animalworldnetwork&query=vet+wrap&.autodone=NSEARCH.htmlrce.

[Jenn]

Excellent! Thanks!

Jenn

[Jenn]

Well I did order some vet wrap... hopefully I'll have it soon - will post pix of the gym once it's wrapped. Harley has sat on the perches wrapped with hemp but he seems a little bit apprehensive about the whole structure. We have it beside his cage so he *can* swing the door open and reach the wrapped perches if he wants to. I've seen him checking it out a few times but he's not convinced it's a "fun" thing for him yet. He's curious ;)

We've taken some forward steps and one or two back. Yesterday he spent a fair bit of time on my shoulder - fine with me except he prefers to put one foot right on my skin and he ends up pinching/scratching the devil out of my neck. He also snuggled into my neck, feet on my chest. He hasn't done that a lot with me before, so it was nice - the scratches on my neck notwithstanding. I tried putting a towel around my neck to protect my skin - he decided to try to rip at that - a bit more boisterous than was in my comfort zone.

In general I'd say he's becoming more trusting. The daily ritual of scritches and his regurgitating enthusiastically continues. I asked JT if he is quite that excited when JT does his daily greeting with him - JT said he bobs/regurgitates *sometimes* but not always. Harley *always* does it for me - several times a day - each time I come up to the cage. It's almost alarming how hard he works to barf up his last meal... he always keeps it in his mouth (whew!) but he's always wanting to share LOL!

Here's another observation too... Harley never wants to "step up" from his cage. It can be "encouraged" with the use of a wooden perch for him to beak, he will step up but this is forcing and we only do it if we absolutely need to move him. JT is better at this than I... but even JT usually needs the perch to get him to step up from the cage. HOWEVER... if he's on the T-stand, on the floor, or now on the new gym, he will lift his foot up, toes open, and lean over *wanting* to step up. So there's no doubt in my mind he knows how to ask to be "stepped up"... he just NEVER wants to from his cage. Goes back to my thinking on the safety/dominance issue of his cage. That's *his* place where he rules. From anywhere else, he's very accommodating and he'll "ask" to be picked up. Interesting :)

The setback I had yesterday... we were playing, Harley and me. He was on his cage, he was getting scritches, and we play a game where he sits on his door and I swing it open and (nearly) shut... we (JT and/or I) say, "Weeeeeee" when we swing the door, and Harley says it too. I open and close the door gently so he doesn't lose his balance. No problems there... however during a scritch session, Harley moved and lost his balance and nearly fell. Naturally he let out a big squawk as he corrected himself, but then he looked at *me* as if I'd knocked him down (and I didn't - didn't even have a hand on him when he slipped). After that when I tried to resume our "session" he kept squawking and trying to lunge... so I backed off. It's as if he blames me for his slip - doesn't trust me not to knock him off balance again :( He was peeved at me for the rest of the evening - so I kept on talking to him but didn't try to make contact with him. He squawked and yelled and otherwise carried on letting me know he was in a cranky mood.

I'm hoping today he's "forgotten" this... for last night I felt as if his own slip had cancelled out some of the trust that's been built. I guess we'll see.

Jenn

[Jenn]

Harley wasn't terribly sociable with me today. I was late because of my son's 6th grade graduation (Way to go, James!!).

When I got there (JT was there minding the store alone), shortly after I got there I opened Harley's door, greeted him then I had some work to do. Harley didn't like that so he opened the latch on his food door and started shovelling food onto the floor. Later I had JT bring him out of the cage (he will NOT step off the cage for me without a fight, and I don't like to fight) and he spent a bit of time on my shoulder but he started getting a bit "pecky" with my face which made me nervous so he went back to his cage.

I did take a few pictures of him, and JT took one of Harley and me before he got grumpy. Compared to 10 months ago, he's looking SOOO much better, although he still has a while to go before he's looking "right".

Here's a pic of him "then"... last July... I've shown this picture before, but it's the best frame of reference I have, and it's a stark contrast to now...

http://www.salemplace.com/harley/harley_070305.jpg

And here he is today, on his not-quite complete gym...

http://www.salemplace.com/harley/harley_05_26_06.jpg

And here we are together :)

http://www.salemplace.com/harley/jenn_harley_05_26_06.jpg

Jenn

[Shirley]

Congratulations, Jenn! Those are fabulous update pics!! :dance: :beerchug:

[amazing greys]

Jenn, what a huge difference from the 1st pic!! :goodjob:

Great pics!!

Remember, we all go through ups n downs, but he is showing improvement still, no matter how many steps you think he's taking back.

I like the new gym so far, and before long it will be done and looking pretty spiffy for Harley, I know he's happy ;)

[Jean]

Jenn, he is looking GREAT! What an improvement since he came home with you. That is a cute pic of both of you. You look like you belong together.:heart:

:thanx: for the update pics.

[Jenn]

Heh he still makes me nervous - yesterday he was getting a bit too up close and personal with my face - and my nervousness shows in the picture - and that was *before* he started to intimidate me.

There are days when he's just so sweet, and other days when I think he's going to be into mischief, and still others when he's downright unpleasant. Comes with the territory with a rescue bird, I guess.

Still, each day he's improving, and that's what matters. I look forward to the day when he's in full feather - still got a way to go for that, but he's getting there!

Jenn

[Jim]

Man-O-Man Jenn, Harley is doing really great. For being a little less than a year with you he sure looks good. That was neat that you put the last July pic too so we can see the change.

His new look shows that all the patience and love Harley is getting is paying off.
:goodjob:

[parrotgirl]

OMG, those pics brought a tear to my eye, one of happiness that is. He is looking great. He has gone from a body macaw to a full magnificent macaw. They are brilliant. Well done both of you.


He is a real happy good looking guy. The playgym looks great and he seems to like it. He's gonna have a lot of fun on that.

Thanks for sharing the pics Jenn they are beautiful. :wub: :heart: :wub:

[Jenn]

Thanks all :)

Even *I* am surprised when I see the "before" picture, versus now. To me changes seem to happen soooooo slowly, but in the bigger picture it hasn't been all that long really, and he's looking so much better.

Hopefully before too much longer he'll be back in full feather once again. It's nice when people notice - folks who come in to the shop to see him notice the changes, especially if they haven't been in for a while.

He keeps me on my toes, that's for sure. He's a slob! I'm always sweeping up after him!

Jenn

[Jenn]

Hi everyone :)

Not sure how many of you will remember this old thread - I see it's been about 18 months or more since I posted to it.

Thanks to all of you who helped me in this phase of Harley's rehabilitation...

Here's an update on him...

A year ago I went through some "personal" stuff... and right about the same time, a man, Richard, came into the shop to look at Harley - he'd seen him through the window, and he wasn't even interested in fish, but he was interested in birds. He already had a blue-crowned conure, Kermit, just like my Pepe and Woodstock... but it was Harley who caught his eye, and his heart.

Harley stepped right up on Richard the first time he came in (and Richard asked first if he could "make contact" and after I told him a bit about Harley and that it was "at his own risk", he put out his arm and Harley walked right up on his arm like they were old friends.

I was surprised - Harley has always preferred men, but the instant familiarity with Richard was odd, even for Harley.

Most days for a few weeks, Richard would come in and just spend time with Harley, and he'd speak about wanting "someday" to acquire a Blue & Gold.

As weeks passed, it occurred to me that it might be a good match - Richard and Harley... so one day I approached Richard with the notion of adopting him - since my circumstances had changed a bit, and I was having difficulty keeping up with Harley's attention needs, and he seemed to like Richard more anyway... so Richard said he'd think about it, and he did. That was in January of 2007.

Sometime in early March, Richard told me that he'd like to take Harley home - but not for a few more weeks. No problem - no hurry - whenever he was ready. I also told him that if for any reason, things didn't work out, to let me know - I wasn't going to just dump him. In fact I already felt guilty about rehoming him and if there was any doubt or unforeseen problems, I wanted Richard to know that Harley could always come back.

Around the end of March, Harley went to his new home with Richard. Richard has been awesome about keeping me updated, and Harley has even come in for a few visits. The most touching visit was the second last visit, where Harley *particularly* seemed happy to see me and he indicated he wanted to step up on me, he stood on my arm (didn't try for the shoulder) and let me scratch him and love on him and didn't do any of his characteristic faking me out pretending to be nice only to bite when my guard was down! No - he was downright cuddly! He loves Richard - that is evident, but in his own way I think he was trying to show some sort of appreciation for getting him where he is today.

I likely won't see Harley again until the weather is warmer, but Richard still comes by regularly to update me on his status. Richard also has a Red Lored Amazon that he got after Harley moved in. Kermit the Blue Crowned Conure isn't terribly impressed with Harley - after all she was there first *g* but they all have their individual time with Richard, and the flock is a happy one.

You can see pictures of Harley and his new person, Richard, here: http://flickr.com/photos/frogbelly/sets/72157594554440167/ The first pictures are from when Richard was getting to know Harley in my shop and they run right through to the present time. Since he went home with Richard he's continued to improve, both psychologically as well as physically - he's in beautiful feather now - a far cry from the pictures I took of him early in this thread shortly after we rescued him. Hard to believe it's the same bird - but as soon as he opens his beak, there's absolutely no doubt - it's Harley!

Jenn

[Shirley]

Way to go, Jenn, on Harley's magnificent improvement and full recovery from FDB (feather destructive behavior)! I LOVED watching the slideshow version of all his photos... what a gorgeous tail! :clap: :goodjob: :thanx:

[Jim]

Hey Jenn!!! Nice to see you.

Great news! Harley looks great. Imo you showed the highest love and respect a person can for another creature. You knew what was best for Harley. I hope -IF- the day ever came I could be as selfless as you. I'd like to think I could be, but, my selfishness *could* cause me to think I'm doing right by them. Besides, I wouldn't have to feel the heartbreak, so selfishness, in my mind, would be justified.

Thanks for letitng us know about Harley.
:goodjob:

[Jenn]

Thanks, Jim. Having support for what I did means a lot. I suppose I felt a bit guilty too because I didn't "miss" him all that much :( I mean I did - but after 2 or 3 days it occurred to me how less stressed *I* was because I didn't have to hear his screaming anymore. I never realized how much it bothered me, even after I thought I'd learned to tune it out.

I also thought most of my customers would be glad he was gone (refer back to said screaming)... but most missed him and were sorry to hear he was gone, but glad to hear it was to a good and loving home. Many still ask me for updates, and I really appreciate that Richard keeps me posted. He was never a client of mine -he doesn't care for fish, but nonetheless he stops in regularly to let me know how things are going, and it's always good.

It means a lot to me that Richard keeps me in the loop - he didn't just "disappear" after adopting Harley. That reinforces my feeling that I did do the right thing, and it's a pleasure to have visits from Harley himself, so I can see with my own eyes that he's doing so well - and he *is* doing extremely well - better than I ever expected given how sorry he was when he came to me. Hard to believe it will be 3 years ago this summer.

On another note, I added a new Fid to my flock... I have 3 now. I did rehome my 2 tiels to one of my clients who loves them to bits. I like tiels but those in particular seemed to like young boys better - they both came from different homes to begin with but both had been kept by young boys/teenagers, and my customer that adopted them has a son about 10 or 11 years old, and so that was a good match and they give me regular updates too ;)

My new Fid thread is here http://www.thebirdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6466

I've decided that conures are "my speed"... my new one is just a love, and my "original" 2 (my first parrots) are awesome!

Jenn