Bailey's New Discovery [Archive] - Birds of a Feather Forums

vmtwriter

04-24-2005, 01:45 AM

oh no.. http://9.forumer.com/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif We haven't progressed that far with him. He's still cage-bound. We're still in the "no touchy" stage. http://9.forumer.com/html/emoticons/sad.gif We're trying to find ways to get him used to us, without giving the poor thing a heart attack every time we open the cage. Greg has started hiding sunflower seeds in one of his toys so that he can start associating his presence w/treats.

Bailey knows I take care of his food and water, and he doesn't freak out about that. It's just any other time I try to get close to him, he'll run to the other side of the cage. I know it's still really soon. The poor thing has probably been wild for quite some time. It just takes patience. http://9.forumer.com/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif Which I'm trying to practice. http://9.forumer.com/html/emoticons/wink.gif

Shirley

04-24-2005, 01:46 AM

Hi Vickie,

That's the stage Steve is with Michelle, our new 8-mo-old African Red-belly. He leaves her cage door open next to his recliner and holds his hand palm up there while watching TV, sunflower seed and peanuts in his hand... she eventually comes down and takes them and even steps onto his hand now and lets him bring her to his lap.

Prior to that, he would take her out pretty much against her wishes while talking sweetly to her and then play silly sweet-talking games with her as she would strut around on the floor with him slowly crawling around with her, not chasing her, just sort of with her. Very funny to watch. Then he would eventually scoop her up, with her screaming, and put her in the bit parrot tree, and she'd think that was pretty cool up there. After a couple days of that, she would step up for him w/o biting. Oh yes, he got the bites and such in the beginning, and still does on occasion now, but not nearly so often. Now she is glad to see him, but still shy, like she wants to come out, but still takes her time.

Here's a link of the day we brought her home, in sequence, and the next day or so after we brought her home. We got her on April 10.

http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/redbelly/

vmtwriter

04-24-2005, 01:47 AM

how totally cool is that!

I wonder if Baily would be more receptive if I went in with a handful of sunflower seeds. I bet he would.

I'd have to try it in a quiet room with no dog. Jack would get way too excited. He thinks the bird is his but I won't let him have it. So, when we go outside he looks up in the tree where we found Bailey as if there'd be another one for him. http://9.forumer.com/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif Silly dog.

Shirley

04-24-2005, 01:48 AM

The dog will definitely set his "coming out" way back... he knows he's the prey and the dog is the predator...

We crate Sonja or put her in the other room, even though she has zip zero interest in the birds... but until Michelle is completely at ease with us humans, we aren't going to add Sonja to the mix.

A bird is protecting its safety more than it is "fearful" of us. That's one way to think of it.
What does it have to gain by being friendly with us? It doesn't really know, yet. Well, last night Michelle learned she had a grand time crawling way up Steve's shirt sleeve and spending a lot of time up there against his arm peering out at the world, and she's against his warm arm at the same time... that's part of the bond they are building.

Little by little... it's beginnings like these...

~ Shirley http://9.forumer.com/html/emoticons/bof/smile.gif PS You won't always have to put the dog out of view...

vmtwriter

04-25-2005, 10:13 AM

We had our first "outing" yesterday. We decided to use the bathroom because we could shut the door to the potty room and keep him in a contained area.

At first, he was going to walk out of the cage like it was nothing, but we accidentally scared him. Then it was a bit of a fluff getting him to come out of the cage. Once he did, he tried to find a corner to hide in, but eventually he grew braver and braver.

We got him to step up on his perch and from there is was an easy move to feeding him seeds by hand. He didn't try to run away or anything.

We figure we'll try that for awhile just to get him used to us outside the cage.

Of course, Jack was in our bedroom behind a closed door so that he didn't frighten Bailey either.

He's really gotten into playing with his toys now. It's fun to watch him interact with them. One of the toys, Greg can hide sunflower seeds in tiny holes. Bailey enjoys seeking out the seeds.

We don't give Bailey a mirror full time. It's only for a couple of hours in the evening. We haven't noticed any possessive behavior over it, but will watch him just in case.

Bailey has already become attached to us, and cries out when we leave the room. He's associated a closing door with Greg coming home from work and makes all kinds of noise until Greg comes into the room to say hello.

It's amazing how quickly he's wriggled his way into our life. biggrin.gif

vmtwriter

04-25-2005, 10:17 AM

Since this last post, we've had a couple more outings. Bailey is definitely a lot calmer when we put our hands into the cage and when we open it up so he can come out. He'll climb on a perch and let us get close to him, but it's still "hands off"... no touching allowed.

I think he likes his times out of the cage. He doesn't shake or shiver like he's afraid.

He does a bit of beak grinding, which the book says means he's contented and happy. I guess that's a good thing. :)

Shirley

04-25-2005, 11:20 PM

They grind their beaks when they are ready to nap or go to sleep, and when they are content and resting. :) You're making great progress! :thumbup:

gregt

04-26-2005, 09:41 AM

I notice you neglected to mention the other "first" we had while he was playing outside his cage this weekend.... ;)

vmtwriter

04-26-2005, 09:49 AM

:emot-danc yeah.. I guess I did forget to mention our other "first"... heehee. :doh:
But, then it was more personal to you, than it was to me. :roflmao2:Bailey took his first dump outside the cage and initiated Greg. :funny: I know my turn is coming, but I'm glad Greg was first.:dance:

Jean

04-26-2005, 06:13 PM

That is adorable! :heart: It is fun to watch them talk and feel a mirror as they look at themself. :dance: Elvie get's on :cloud9: every time I get the miror out for him.

vmtwriter

04-27-2005, 10:14 AM

Yeah. I thought it was "adorable" too.. but Greg didn't think it was too funny. :roflmao2: But, then, he was the one who got pooped on. Not me. :rotflmao:

Bailey really enjoys his mirror time. We give him time in the late afternoon, early evening. You should have heard him last night, just chattering and cooing away.

Shirley

04-27-2005, 01:46 PM

Oh my! Our birds (the large ones) are potty-trained! I won't let them do that on me! But... Steve just doesn't care. He does the "go potty" over the little waste basket in the van and next to his recliner and the sofa and such, but he lets them all ride his shoulder and then goes to the grocery... and I say, STEVE! You HAVE to change your shirt! "WHY?" "BECAUSE IT'S so BAD it's 3-D!!!" "Oh. Well I can't see it". aaarggghhh!.

:doh: :doh: He also forgets and wears the shirts they chew the collars up out in public.... he looks like a homeless guy sometimes... wearing his bird shirts to the grocery or hardware store... :rolleyes:

vmtwriter

04-27-2005, 01:54 PM

Well, I guess that's a man who's very close to his birds. :wub: Nothing but true love would keep a little poo poo from ruining the day.

Not sure yet where potty training is on Bailey's list of tasks. I have to say it's probably down on the list. :funny:

We're still in the early stages of "let's get to know each other"

Shirley

04-27-2005, 02:06 PM

Once he's sitting on your hand... it begins then. Have a little plastic waste basket nearby with a paper towel in the bottom. When he goes, hold him over it and say the word you choose (different from the dog's command! :funny: ) and say Good Boy! (even though he just went on you!) and then start anticipating his needs and hold him over the basket, say "go potty" about three times. If he has to go, he'll go. Once they know what the word means, you got it made. BUT, you have to anticipate. They rarely ask, except in the really larger birds, like the Umbrellas.

I'm not sure how well the conures learn this. Bourke's don't. Cockatiels don't in my experience.

Jean

04-27-2005, 11:06 PM

They usually potty train very easily. I potty trained our nanday and Elvie almost immediately by using that method I would guess, we have had no more then 5 or 6 misses in over 10 years.

vmtwriter

04-28-2005, 08:17 PM

:dance: Bailey's newest discovery is Greg's shoulder. We had a couple of really great sessions out of the cage. Bailey even let us get close enough to just barely touch him.

We're still in the bathroom stage of taking Bailey out, so Greg built Bailey a perch that expands over the sink. Very ingenious. Instant potty. :rotflmao::eek:

Of course, Bailey found Greg's ear quite fascinating and it was a bit of a dance to keep him from exploring it further.

But, when Bailey was tired and he wanted to go back to his cage, he did. Leaving us with little doubt that the session was over. :D

I'm really proud of the little guy. He's making progress. Oh, and Bailey's doing great too. :roflmao2:

Shirley

04-28-2005, 08:19 PM

That's great progress! :thumbup: I must say... be careful with the shoulder perching. Birds can, if they wish, deliver a nasty injurious bite to the face or ear with lightning speed when you least expect it... :eek:

Show us a pic of the bathroom perch! :emot-danc

gregt

04-28-2005, 08:22 PM

Shirley, the perch is very similar to yours only smaller. I have some ideas on how to fancy it up, but right now it's very simple.

Junkzoo

04-28-2005, 09:33 PM

Congrats on the progress you two!
Likely the Sun had some form of training in it's prev life,,and you just might have to jog it's memory to remember what i knew. it prob had been doing it's own "wild bird" thing for a while,,,,,,
Ditto on the ear thing,,,any bird can nail you a good one, if not watched/trusted,,,
Plus a shoulder tends to give a bird a upper hand on dominance,,if you keep it lower than your shoulder/self,it puts you more in command. and a total pain to get the bird off when you want it off! makes the bird fuss up a storm , with you trying to get it off the shoulder , and could bring on a nervous nipping session you don't need at this point.
Another thing to keep in mind(if you don't know it by now,) while on your hand, elbow lower than hand, eliminates the desire to climb up higher,,,up your arm , to your shoulder,,,

good luck, keep us posted on progress!;)

gregt

04-29-2005, 06:15 AM

Thanks for all the info guys. Right now we're just happy that he's willing to do this. He was fluttering about the room and I cupped my hands under him and picked him up, he nipped at my finger (not hard) and fluttered to my chest and climbed up. Considering that's the first he's let us touch him in any way, I'm not going to worry about him being on my shoulder too much. :funny: he did go for the ear a couple times, but I was faster than him. ;)

And here I always thought pirates had one eye from pirating. Now I find out it's from parroting. :rotflmao:

vmtwriter

04-29-2005, 10:03 AM

Wow, that's some good info. Thanks a lot you guys. We really appreciate all the help. We're total neophytes when it comes to birds, but we've learned so much from ya'all.

Shirley

04-29-2005, 11:09 AM

And here I always thought pirates had one eye from pirating. Now I find out it's from parroting. :rotflmao:

:roflmao2:

Junkzoo

04-29-2005, 11:45 AM

And here I always thought pirates had one eye from pirating. Now I find out it's from parroting. :rotflmao:

Ditto the LOL Greg!:roflmao2: :lol_hit: :rofl: You just stuck a hysterical mental image in my mind, i'll prob never get rid of! And will laugh to myself with EVERY pirate i see from now on!:funny:
(You know, in the movies etc.,,,,have not seen a real pirate in oh,,,a few years LOL)

gregt

04-29-2005, 11:56 AM

Jeff. If you have not seen Pirates of the Carribean, you've got to see it. It's GREAT! (funny)

vmtwriter

04-29-2005, 05:43 PM

Bailey has some how figured out that Greg's shoulder is a safe haven. While we had him out today for a training session, he spied Greg's shoulder and made a beeline for it. After that, whenever we'd put him back down on his training perch, if he felt a little bit threatened (and sometimes even when he wasn't) he'd high-tail it for Greg's shoulder. :eek:

Now. I think that we're making remarkable progress in the fact that Bailey is comfortable enough around us to think of Greg as a safe place to go to. But, are we going to end up with problems down the road if we "let" Bailey do this? :doh:

I say "let" because there's really no "letting" about it. Bailey does it on his own. Even when he's not really threatened. Do you think it's because he's trying to get to the highest point? :idea:

They do make the darndest cutest couple, though. We'll have to get pictures next time. :heart::wub:

Shirley

04-29-2005, 08:35 PM

But, are we going to end up with problems down the road if we "let" Bailey do this? :doh:

Possibly yes, but no if you handle this properly.

The worst thing about allowing a bird on the shoulder is

1) they can of course bite you in very vulnerable places -- your face and its delicate parts

2) you can't get them off your shoulder by yourself if they choose not to let you... they can "get over on you" by biting, climbing down your back and biting as you are reaching backwards, not being able to see what you are reaching for, and they are avoiding your reach and biting you.

Not a good thing. :help:

This is where clicker training definitely comes in very handy, and takes only a few minutes. :agree: It builds up tremendous trust, is a fun game, and is 100% positive reinforcement. :emot-danc

Build or get a small table-size parrot stand, much like the one Majj has on her scale in the thread about weighing birds. :thumbup:

Put Bailey on the stand.

Use a plastic stick such as a picnic knife as a "target stick".

Get a training clicker from PetSmart of some other pet store. They are about $2.00.

Choose a favorite treat such as a peanut, and break it into very small pieces so that Bailey can eat it so quickly it takes no time at all.

Hold the stick in front of him. He will likely touch it with his beak.

Say "Touch". (he touches it. Don't push the stick to his beak)

As soon as he touches it, CLICK and say "Good Boy!" and immediately give him a treat with your other hand. Timing with the clicker is very important.

Repeat.

Repeat.

Repeat.

Now hold the stick elsewhere, but close, like to the left,

Repeat.

Repeat.

Repeat.

Now hold the stick elsewhere, like to the right.

Repeat.

Repeat.

Repeat.

Now hold the stick up high, but close.

Repeat.

Repeat.

Repeat.

Finish on a positive where he touches the stick and you click, say good boy, and treat.

Lesson one is done.

That's it.

You've established a trust at this point, and he will love the stand and the clicker and the training stick.

Next lesson will go a step further, such as "Turn around" after a quick review of lesson one.

Believe it or not, it's a lesson like this that stops him from biting you when you reach for him when he's on your shoulder. Why would he want to bite you when he trusts you and loves you so much?

Btw, it looks like he may be bonding with Greg, but that doesn't mean he doesn't also like Vicki.

I have a thread on Clicker Training -- I believe it's in Squawk 'n' Talk.

I have .mov's and .mpg's of Holly, Shelby, and Skyler doing their C/T linked from that thread, too.

C/T = clicker training.

~ Shirley

Majj

04-29-2005, 11:30 PM

I think Bailey Loves greg..He saved him didn`t he...watch those bites ..lol..
Sunny just puts enough pressure to say I don`t like that , never breaks the skin and always lets go..NOT SO if he gets home of invaders to our home..lol
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v373/Maj/NewYearsDaySunnyNaughtyMumblowingkissestoMYDavids. jpg

Jean

04-30-2005, 12:29 AM

Once he is stepping up pretty good, a way to get your parot to associate with people is to sit on the floor with 3 ,or 4. people and play pass the bird, this allows the bird a chance to get used to different handlers. You may not want more then 3 or 6 rounds depending on the birds reaction to this new game. Playing it every now and then is a good thing especially if you do not have many people in the household. Some people offer a treat each round, some have each person give a seed, and others feel they do not need to until the bird is finished and then give it a treat. It all depends on the bird and how well he accepts his new venture.

Shirley

04-30-2005, 12:49 AM

You know, without thinking about it, that's what I did with Shelby in the classroom... she was 6 mos old when I took her the first time, the 22 kids sat in a big circle, and Shelby hoppped around (BE2s hop and walk) and did whatever she wanted to do while the kids giggled! Some kids she'd stop at and hop up on their knees, others she'd pass on by. She loved it! But she got to investigate all the kids at her own speed, and they sat cross-legged with their hands in their laps. :dance:

Jean

04-30-2005, 01:44 AM

Shirley, that a good way to teach both bird and children how much fun it can be to be close or associating with one another.

Another way to teach a bird to play with a ball, frizbee, many smaller birds may want to play with plastic bottle caps, it is fun to have about 2 - 6 people sit on the floor like that and allow the bird to learn and enjoy playing ball or frizbee with more then one human while being contained to the circle. This sort of interaction teaches them how to play with extended flock members.

vmtwriter

04-30-2005, 10:21 AM

wow. lots of really great information. :thanx:

I'm not quite sure we're there yet, to be passing him around to other people. He still barely tolerates us, and won't step up on our hand, but will do it quite readily on a perch now.

Having Bailey bond with Greg is great. :dance: I was worried that the bird had been wild for so long that we'd never be able to tame it. This is awesome progress. So long as he tolerates me and knows I'm part of the "flock" will be cool. He may come around and bond with me too, eventually.

But like you said, Shirley, building the trust is important. And I think that Greg can do that with Bailey.

Shirley

04-30-2005, 12:09 PM

Steve and I put Shelby or Skyler in the middle on the floor and roll a ball back and forth and play "keep-away". Shelby particularly likes this game. In fact, with her, we can toss it back and forth and she hops in the air trying to catch it. She's extra playful, though. Holly would think this is stupid and would walk away. (African Grey) Another thing... Steve fills up the coffee table with all sorts of foot toys, and things that aren't bird toys, and Shelby tosses them off as fast as he can put them back, while Steve says comically, "Shelby! Are you throwing everything on the floor!! Shelby! Did I say you can do that!"

She thinks this is the most fun in the world! She gets ALL wound up and very loud playing this game.

Junkzoo

04-30-2005, 12:35 PM

LOL on your games story Shirley!:funny:
Vicki, Suns , like other birds can and will "pick" on or the other in a multiple person setting,
I remember we had a pair of Suns in the shop,,,and if you took one away from the other on your hand, the left Sun would scream up a storm! they did not care to be separated.

Maybe it was a instilled pet shopselling "ruse" , but i always thought Suns did better in a pair,,,mebbe it was a selling ploy, since we had the pair,,not sure now,,,,if the pair thing is the case, might be why Greg is getting "picked" to be the one Bailey choses so strongly,,,

On the shoulder thing,i agree with Shirley,,it's ok , but you gotta watch it tho,,,,can entice trouble, and you need none now, or even later on,,
might have been that Bailey actually a Sea World , of the likes, parrot,,,and might have been able to do a lot of shoulder perching,,allowed by so many unknowledged quests passing thru there,,,Someone puts , or allows a bird to step up onto a "newbie's " hand, odds are it will go on up the arm,and end up on the shoulder (bad habit scenario)
Glad to hear of the great progress you two are having with your new found friend,,:thumbup:

gregt

04-30-2005, 02:13 PM

I did have him sit on my hand for quite awhile yesterday, but he was not nearly as calm as when he was on my shoulder. I also got two new "beak" shaped scars yesterday. ;) little bugger. I think he likes me because I let him bite me. :p

vmtwriter

04-30-2005, 03:31 PM

Well, Bailey has a stubborn streak. He even chose my shoulder this time to retreat to when he didn't want to be part of the training session anymore. Of course, I have a little more hair than Greg so Bailey found it quite interesting. Even figured out how to hide in it. ;)

When Bailey says the training session is over, it's over. He goes back to his cage and goes inside.

As a side note, we've found a better way for Jack to handle our training sessions with Bailey. We used to keep Jack in the bedroom, while we went into the bathroom. That disturbed Jack and made him upset. He couldn't see what we were doing but he could hear us. :foot-tap:

So, we decided to put Jack in his crate (which is in the bathroom), now Jack can see us and he's so much calmer. :woot:

We did have a bit of excitement when Bailey wanted in his cage and was going to climb Jack's crate to get to it. I intervened and gave Bailey something else to climb on so that he and Jack didn't come to a face to face meeting. :ohmy:

Bailey is getting better at the "Step Up" command. And he's even letting us touch him now when we put our hand in front of him. He stepped up on my hand. :thumbup: Even if it was briefly, he held his position until he found a way up my arm and to my shoulder.

We think he chose my shoulder this time because Greg kept telling him no when he would get on his. Told ya, he's stubborn. :funny:

Junkzoo

04-30-2005, 05:09 PM

When Bailey says the training session is over, it's over. He goes back to his cage and goes inside.

Vicki(and Greg) here's a thought,,,,You mentioned Bailey "goes back to his cage".
Does that mean you are holding "class" nearby/same room as his cage? You might find he will pay more attention to you,and for prob longer times if you work with him outa sight, away from his cage=protection. Or if you are doing that already and I mis-interpreted this, sorry,, I seemed to remember one of you mentioning the bathroom(a perch or something?) So maybe i'm way off on getting on the same page as you folks.If not, try working away from his cage,cuz if he sees it, and bores of you two(which can be quick,bird thing LOL)he will set his lil heart of returning to the cage,,,
His wings are clipped to some degree,,correct?Again, forgot if you told us, or that i ever knew,LOL long day,,,,

gregt

04-30-2005, 05:14 PM

We have been keeping his cage in the bathroom but on the other side. (it's a big bathroom, but he can still see it) We'll start putting it outside.

He is clipped so he can barely flutter from my hand to halfway up to my shoulder and then he climbs the rest of the way.

In the situation Vicki described he actually walked along the floor right to Jack and climbed up to his cage (which was sitting on top of Jacks crate).

vmtwriter

04-30-2005, 05:15 PM

:idea: Hmm.. I never thought of removing his cage from sight. Gee.. that's a good idea. :doh:

Yes, we did get his wings clipped, so we don't have to worry about that. Of course, the little stinker can climb up about as fast as he could fly up. He's an exceptional climber.

Junkzoo

04-30-2005, 05:21 PM

I read Vicki's post first, and was gonna question, why not take the bird away from the cage, but i see that his cage is the the training room LOL, never mind,,,,:doh: :funny:

Junkzoo

04-30-2005, 05:25 PM

Darn this coffee, making me think and all:doh:
You said bathroom, just wondering about mirrors,,,might make paying attention to you a lil tougher, if he sees a another cute Sun Conure in the room,,,,:scratchch (the ol "no mirror toys in the cage" rule. Sees another bird, and to heck with you)

vmtwriter

04-30-2005, 05:28 PM

Bailey doesn't seem too interested in the other "bird" in the mirror during our training session. He might if we remove the cage as a distraction.

Junkzoo

04-30-2005, 05:43 PM

Yup:agree:

Shirley

04-30-2005, 06:48 PM

Jeff made a very good point. Training should take place out of sight of the cage.

Wanna hear something funny? Shelby, our ADD bird (attention deficit disorder), can C/T for only a few minutes at a time, sometimes less. I was working with her beautifully one day, and then suddenly she quit midway and said "G'night, G'night" repeatedly. I kept the training up and she kept the "G'night" up. She finally hopped off the training stand, off the table, walked to her cage, climbed inside, up to here sleeping rope, (I'm wathing out of shear curiosity) and she tucks her head and goes to sleep! Wow! I shut her door and left her alone. She slept a good hour at least! :wub:

Jean

04-30-2005, 08:19 PM

Good point, you always need to be away from any familiar cage or play stand for training.

Shirley, that is the cutest story I've heard about a self assured birdie with a mission in mind. :heart: That's a little gal that knew just exactly what she wanted and how to do it. :wub:

:thanx: thanks, for sharing that precious Shelby moment.

Junkzoo

04-30-2005, 08:26 PM

LOL !Ditto ! thanks for sharing Shirley!:thumbup: Great story!
(But then again ,ALL stories involving Shelby are priceless!):agree:

vmtwriter

04-30-2005, 08:42 PM

Wow.. that's a bird that knows its own mind. And body clock.

vmtwriter

05-03-2005, 03:11 PM

Just wanted to post a brief update. We've been working with Bailey without the cage in the room and we have had good progress. :D He seems to pay attention a bit better. However, we've discovered that he really, really likes to sit on shoulders. And, I've been initiated into the poopy shoulder club. :eek: :funny:

Bailey and Jack have actually come face to face with Jack in his crate and Bailey crawling up the outside of Jack's crate. All of us walked out of that one with our heart's racing. :eek:
:eek2: Jack's trying to lick the bird, we're trying to keep the two of them separated, and Bailey is climbing as fast as he can.

But, we all survived.. so continue on to our next session.

gregt

05-03-2005, 03:13 PM

We're having a heck of a time getting him off our shoulder now. No matter what, that's where he heads...

Shirley

05-03-2005, 03:29 PM

Do you seriously want him to stop? Shelby *never* got on my shoulder, b/c I never let her start, but Steve always let her on his, so she climbed on every innocent old lady's shoulder, little kid's shoulder, no matter WHAT! and nothing would stop her... b/c Steve started her on his... and would not stop her... so if you seriously want him to stop... seriously, then now is the time without fail, and we can get this stopped, but even one time allowing, and it's like putting a quarter in the slot machine and hitting payday one time... you'll keep putting quarters in 'til you hit payday again, even if you spend 1,000 quarters before the next payday...

So.. what's the verdict? Stop 100% on everyone, or not?

vmtwriter

05-03-2005, 03:35 PM

If it were just me making the decision, I'd say let him stay on the shoulder. I don't mind and I think it helps Bailey feel more secure.

But, I'm not making this decision alone, so we'll have to see what Greg says.

gregt

05-03-2005, 03:41 PM

It's not a matter of minding that he's on the shoulder. It's a matter of not being able to do anything else with him.

Shirley

05-03-2005, 03:41 PM

By the way, Dr. Cook's Moluccan, Merlin, wants to get on strangers' shoulders, and is absolutely not allowed to do so. Talk about a dangerous beak! He never tries to get on hers. She got him at the age of 6. He's 13 now. I saw her forearm once with a rather large purple bruise about the size of an apple wrapped around it. A Merlin bit that didn't break the skin. When Merlin decided he "loved" Steve and flew to him, Steve put out his forearm for him to land on, which he did, and he started walking up his arm toward his shoulder. Dr. Cook immediately said, "NO SHOULDER, MERLIN!" Merlin glanced at her and walked backwards down to Steve's forearm. She told Steve to keep his arm in a tight crook so he'd know NOT to walk to his shoulder. That's how I always kept my arm with Shelby, in a sharp L shape. If she started up my arm to my shoulder when she was a 4-mo-old, I put my other hand on her head, preventing her from climbing, and said No, Shelby. and she couldn't climb. BUT Bailey may have been allowed on shoulders for the past umpteen years! BUT it's also not too late to change that behavior.

gregt

05-03-2005, 03:48 PM

He flutters up, not walking. We've been good not to let him walk up, but he insists on ending up on a shoulder or the floor....

Shirley

05-03-2005, 03:50 PM

Vicki -- He is up there b/c he feels secure. Shelby will hop up on your head if she's suddenly frightened. Skyler is flighted, and he will fly away. Holly has the most powerful beak and won't back down from anything, and will lunge and bite, be it the dog, another person, or, heaven forbid, ME b/c I'm not removing the fearful object! Thus, I keep her AWAY from my face when there's anything unusual around, or when I'm not paying strict attention to her. The worst mistake I can make with Holly is type or talk on the phone with her beak near my face...

Greg... can't do anything else, or can't do anything else with Bailey? A bird on my shoulder pretty much keeps me from doing anything else. Steve seems to be able to do anything he wants with a bird on his shoulder, including mowing the yard or shoveling snow!! I can't!! Plus... I don't like the messes on my clothes.. Steve doesn't care... :doh: :rolleyes: Now, he'll NEVER put Holly on his shoulder! She'd destroy is face, ears, etc. She doesn't let others touch her except to step up and take her some place, like to me or to her cage or tree stand. So, no problem there. Skyler's beak isn't very dangerous. Shelby's can be, and Holly's downright IS. So is Michelle's, but she's not to that point of friendliness and trust, yet.

sorry so long...

Bailey could learn that Vicki's shoulders are off limits, Greg's are OK, but then he'll also get on everyone else's, too, b/c they won't "be in control" like Vicki will.

Shirley

05-03-2005, 03:54 PM

Once you decide what you want Bailey to learn, we can definitely plan out a course of action and training. I know some other members here who can help with this and have the actual experience. You're the parents, and Bailey will behave with Vicki the way Vicki wants, and with Greg the way Greg wants, but with guests and your kids the way Bailey wants if one of you is allowing him on your shoulder, as that will be his favorite behavior.

gregt

05-03-2005, 03:54 PM

What I meant Shirley is that nothing other than on the shoulder is an option. No matter what we do he flaps his way right to the shoulder immediately. There's no stopping him really.

gregt

05-03-2005, 03:56 PM

We have been 100% ineffective in finding anything that will keep him off our shoulders.

vmtwriter

05-03-2005, 04:10 PM

I agree, I think Bailey is seeking the shoulder for security. I don't mind him sitting on my shoulder.. and he seems to behave himself well enough. Except for the pooping incident.

He does pick at my hair more than he does Greg.

I think what we have to do, is find him different avenues to seek security, rather than just fluttering up to our shoulder any time he wants to. I guess that will come with time as he gets more and more used to us and being out with us.

We're still rather new to each other. Having only been two weeks or a little more together.

Shirley

05-03-2005, 05:03 PM

OK, what I'm trying to find out is, do you or do you not want to change his behavior? It can be changed, but there's no use going further unless you want to change it, and the change would start now, not when he's more secure with you.

It doesn't matter to me which way you choose... I'm just trying to find out which way you want to go with this. :scratchch

gregt

05-03-2005, 05:44 PM

I understand that Shirley. What I'm saying is that I don't think Vicki understands that it's not a matter of letting him on your shoulder occassionally. I could care less about that. What I don't want is for that to be the only interaction, which I think it would be if we don't do something.

Shirley

05-03-2005, 06:17 PM

I see. Well, if he's allowed on her shoulder some, he'll go there whenever he wants to, especially when he is insecure or wants to just hang out and watch what she's doing.

However, that doesn't mean it will be their only interaction, either. She can still get him on the floor (Jack in another room) to play, or on the bed (old sheet on top first) to play, or on the coffee table or some other table for play. She can set up a special "Bailey Basket" of toys for playtime, and so long as Jack isn't a threat, he'll come to enjoy those playtimes with both of you, and he'll realize that these times are "off-shoulder" play times because the toys aren't on your shoulders. Get or build a small T-stand and do a simple training session with him on the T-stand.

Here are three links you might find inspirational:

Step 1: Skyler: touching the target stick (849KB)

http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/Holly/Movies/SkylerTouch-Learn2.mpg

Step 2: (holding target stick higher) (1MB)

http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/Holly/Movies/SkylerTouch-Learn3.mpg (http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/Holly/Movies/SkylerTouch-Learn3.mpg)

Holly: advanced fly-turn-kiss no target stick used. The birds LOVE these games and gain lots of trust and companionship playing them. Also, learn lots of voice commands. (warning for dialup, the one below is 8MB)

http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/Holly/Movies/HollyFlyTurnKiss.mpg

Holly and Skyler learned touch, fly-your-wings, turn around, and give kiss
in about 4 or 5 sessions.

It opens up a whole new world of activities and a new relationship with you other than just climbing around on you or wondering what to do with their new basket of floor toys or table toys.

These were filmed in their 2nd or 3rd week of C/T. (clicker training)

~ Shirley :)

gregt

05-03-2005, 07:37 PM

So how to we get him off the shoulder and keep him off long enough to do something else with him?

Shirley

05-03-2005, 07:50 PM

Did you watch the C/T movies?

Does he have a favorite treat "to die for"?

Does he prefer being with you to being in his cage?

If not, do you know what it is that "scares him back to his cage"?

Is it Jack being in the room?

Does he have a favorite toy or favorite type of toy?

Does he "brighten up" when either of you enter the room?

Shirley

05-03-2005, 08:00 PM

Does Vicki like to talk on the phone? There's lots of things I could tell her and ask her...

We do lots of active things with our birds that wouldn't give a shoulder-loving bird a chance... like "fly your wings" all excited and they hang onto our hands as our thumbs are over their feet and we hold them high in the air and up go their wings, flapping really hard (there are photos of this in the Grey forum of Holly doing this -- she loves it and will do it 'til she practically pants!)

We swing them back and forth upside down (this we do after they get used to being upside down -- takes a day or two)

We get excited with them as we play like they are 2-yr-old kids and they get really excited back with us... they forget their worries while they're playing.

Same with new foods -- it's like "YUMMIES! Want some YUMMIES?!!"

gregt

05-03-2005, 08:27 PM

Did you watch the C/T movies?
Yes, I dare to dream of such things. LOL

Does he have a favorite treat "to die for"? So far, sunflower seeds is it. Not a very good treat for training...

Does he prefer being with you to being in his cage? That's probably a no, but he's getting better about it.

If not, do you know what it is that "scares him back to his cage"? Us pestering him not to get on our shoulder. :rotflmao:

Is it Jack being in the room? I'm certain that's not a problem. We've tried it every which way. Unless Jack is barking he ignores him completely.

Does he have a favorite toy or favorite type of toy? He doesn't really play with us yet, but he does play with a few toys in his cage.

Does he "brighten up" when either of you enter the room?Definitely when either of us comes in.

gregt

05-03-2005, 08:29 PM

Just to be clear, ever since he got over his absolute fear of us it's gone like this: 30 seconds on the perch. We give him a seed or two and let him get calm. As soon as we try to do anything with him (or let him get bored, either one) he flys to a shoulder. The rest of the time is spent trying to keep him off the shoulders.

SadennaAndFlock

05-03-2005, 08:47 PM

becareful with the shoulder perching..birds can develope a dominance issue up there and can easily cause injury and sometimes you won't even know it's coming just *Wham* out of nowhere..being that your still working with bailey I would avoid letting him perch on your shoulder especially if this bird is new to you and your home.

vmtwriter

05-03-2005, 08:57 PM

We've gotten a lot of great advice here on the board. We really appreciate it. What we're going to do about it I'm not quite sure yet, but we'll come up with something. Maybe we're pushing Bailey too hard and we need to give him a little more space.

Basically, we've gone from him seeking his cage at every opportunity to him seeking our shoulder during a training session. So, we need to find some in between time where we can work with him.

Shirley

05-03-2005, 10:26 PM

OK... Sunflower seeds is an OK treat... you hull them or buy them hulled, break them into tiny pieces, so it's a quick, quick treat. The treat has to be a very quickly eaten treat.

I told my vet my birds would not c/t. I'd tried it, they wouldn't do it, I told her. She said yes, they will. I was in her office with Skyler at the time, my least trainable parrot. She brought her clicker in, a T-stand, and a peanut, and in less than 2 mintues, he was touching the target stick and hearing the clicker and taking the treat! I was blown away! By the NEXT day, he was giving the kiss, and by the 4th day, doing the full turn-around to a cue, not the training stick (cue being my finger making a circle in the air). Fly your wings came the next week.

Holly picked it up lickety-split, but she's a very fast learner and pays very close attention.

The point of c/t is the trust and bond you form, and the fun you have. When the bird misbehaves in some way, you don't worry about the misbehavior so much as you just go to the T-stand and do some c/t with positive reinforcement and the bird is having fun doing something right for you and getting his reward for correct behavior.

Now, do these things in a different room from where the cage is located. The cage should be out of sight, out of mind.

C/T for Bailey is to get him to trust you, to have fun doing something OFF your shoulder, and to get his mind OFF your shoulder.

If he insists on getting on your shoulder, then he goes back to his cage, OR you put him on the floor or table, stand up and turn your back on him and tell him No Shoulder! Then count to 10 and try again what you were doing. Be consistent. I'm assuming he can't get on your shoulder if you are standing up and he's on the floor or on the coffee table. If he can, then he needs another feather clipped on each side, perhaps.

Be sure you're giving him something to do with you besides getting on your shoulder, and talk to him all the while. Give him positive verbal feedback.

Get him used to some favorite out-of-cage toys.

One of our birds' favorite lap toys is an 8" piece of rawhide cord or string run through a 4" long 1/4"-1/2" diam. pvc pipe knotted on each end. They love stuff like that dangles for them over our laps while we watch TV.

When one of our birds tries to climb up my arm to my shoulder, I hold my opposite hand over its head and say No! and he can't climb further b/c my hand is on his head, blocking his climb. If he/she bites, I say No Bite! firmly and then it's directly back to the cage for a decently long time-out. The biting has stopped.

PS: The fact he brightens up when you enter the room is a clear communication he likes you a lot better than just being in his cage... that's a big plus and so you can train him to do anything since he likes you! :wub: :heart:

Shirley

05-03-2005, 10:41 PM

Does Bailey step up to your hand/finger on command? Does he do the "ladder" step-ups? meaning hand to hand to hand to hand step-ups? (repeating the step-up command each time) This is learning step #1 usually. He must have this down pat before being "allowed" on your shoulder or higher than your shoulder. And a treat every once in awhile for doing this is nice to get a quick response for learning step-up. It's very important that he know what the words in the command "step-up" mean. It's for his own safety and your peace of mind.

He does not need to be treated every time he does something correctly, just as you don't need to win every time you play the slots in Vegas in order to get you to play again. ;)

SadennaAndFlock

05-03-2005, 10:52 PM

A good way to keep bailey from going to your shoulder at leat for now til you have had a chance to really work with bailey and made sure he does step up on command, when you see bailey going for the shoulder distract with a toy. And if bailey pulls the cute trick that alot of birds do by going between your shoulder blades or the middle of your back where you can't reach is to gently lean back against a wall or door and the bird has no choice but to climb back up to your shoulder from there you proceed to make the bird step up...all else fails take the shirt off bird and all they need to know they are not going to win you are in charge...I read bailey flys to a shoulder..I can say this a clipping wings can make training and taming much easier.

Shirley

05-04-2005, 12:01 AM

Hi Vicki and Greg,

Here are some pics I took tonight to hopefully help out a little. Most of these I took while holding her...:rolleyes:

This is how I hold all our larger parrots and it just comes naturally... they are so used to it, and it helps them keep their balance if I lose mine, plus they can't go flying off (Skyler) or jumping down, or running up shoulders so easily.

http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/BF/equipment/shoulder/Holding-Holly3.jpg

If Bailey doesn't like this, get him used to it and make it 2nd nature for both of you for his own safety... like if you carry him outside sometime due to urgent necessity.

http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/BF/equipment/shoulder/Holding-Holly1.jpg

These are different positions of holding Holly. Different hands.

http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/BF/equipment/shoulder/Holding-Holly2.jpg

Ladder step-up: We don't do this anymore, but we teach our baby Bourke's to do this and any new bird to do this until once they hear the command, they raise their foot. If you say "Step up" to Holly, and she raises her foot, you KNOW she won't bite you, she'll step up. If she does NOT raise her foot and you reach in (and you aren't me) she WILL bite you. One should politely ask a bird to step up first, and the bird should politely raise their foot, then the hand should approach the bird's lower chest or foot. 2-way communication and understanding is important.

http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/BF/equipment/shoulder/Ladder-Step-ups.jpg

Now for Shoulder-climbing prevention ~ This is one way I do it:

http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/BF/equipment/shoulder/Shoulder-Prevention.jpg

If the bird persists, I put the bird back in its cage or I put it down and ignore it, saying "No Shoulder". (flat palm of hand, not fingers)

Here, she hasn't started up to my shoulder, but perhaps her body language indicates she is about to...and I've lost my thumb-hold on her foot...

http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/BF/equipment/shoulder/Shoulder-Prevention2.jpg

Note the tight crook in my arm below... hard to walk up the arm this way. If a clipped bird "flutters" up my arm, I just back away or offer my other lower arm or hand for it to land on. Shy people tend to hold their arms out straight when holding a parrot... a nice direct path up to the shoulder is then provided for the happy ambitious parrot...

http://shirleymorgan.com/misc/BF/equipment/shoulder/Shoulder-Prevention3.jpg

Also, from this position, I can lower my hand and forearm if she reaches toward my face.

Hope this helps! :highfive:

~ Shirley

gregt

05-04-2005, 06:27 AM

I understand everything you guys are saying but we're nowhere near that yet. Maybe we are just rushing things. Bailey will step up pretty good onto a wooden dowel, but he won't do it onto our hands yet. That's what we are trying to get him to learn when he goes to our shoulders. I've had him sit on my hand for more than 30 seconds once. Every other time he's immediately tried to fly to the shoulder - yes, I'm blocking him with my hand, but then he just climbs my clothes or lands on the ground.

Maybe we just need to put him on the bed with a sheet and play with him some rather than trying to teach him to step up? Maybe we are rushing things...

gregt

05-04-2005, 07:35 AM

I'm a pretty good dog trainer. I've always done well and can get dogs to do cool stuff and (except for Jack) it's always come naturally and been easy for me. This isn't going nearly as well. I spent some time this morning thinking about what the difference is and, for me at least, the difference is that if a dog were doing what Bailey is doing I would "control" it better. I would physically sit it down and calm it down by talking nice and petting it, but letting it know that I am physically in control - by touch.

I'm "afraid" to take any kind of physical control with Bailey. Not physically afraid, but afraid that I'm going to scare him and set things back with him. So essentially when he moves around and acts up (or flys to a shoulder...), I just let him. I try to block him from trying in the first place, but I never grab at him or "force" him to do something or go somewhere.

If I applied the approach in the above paragraph to a dog I know the results would be no progress - much like we're seeing here. But it just seems different with a bird for some reason. Is that part of my problem, or am I right in not being physical with him?

I guess the question posed by the last few posts is "Should we be having more fun with him, or being more strict with him?" :funny:

Joe

05-04-2005, 07:54 AM

Like everything else with a bird or any animal, it takes time and unconditional love. You guys have a bird that has been wild for some time and now hows to acclimate himself with your home. To me. it is better to nip unwanted behaviors now, before they become too familiar.

I only allow my flock on my shoulder on the rare occasion of a quick pix. To be honest, that is stupid choise, as a medium size bird could really hurt me. Koz has only been on my shoulder three or four times, so he does not try to go there. Ruby was a shoulder bird when I brought her home, but I quickly broke that habit.

Any bird can give a nasty bite while on ones shoulder. It also causes dominance issues. Birds like the shoulder because they like high places, most preferably ones higher than us.

I wish you luck with whatever choice you make with this issue. The important key with your choice is concistantcy from both of you on this and other Bx that may be targeted.

Joe

05-04-2005, 07:55 AM

BTW,

Shirley, that was/is nice of you to take the time to post the step-by-step process for braking this habit that include taking a few pix!

Greg,

This is one of those contriversial issues that many people will not comment on. This is another reason that I am glad that Shirley has stuck to her opinion, as many would be affraid to do so. I polled a site a while back. The majority of peoople honestly answered that they allowed their birds on their shoulder. They also commented that they know this Bx is dangerous. Several people remarked that they allow a few birds to do this, but not all of them.

harleybaby

05-04-2005, 12:39 PM

HI Joe!!

This is a controversial issue so I am going to post my opinion:D which I know my be a little different even though originally I wasn't just for that reason.

I think the problem is that if you are going to have training Bailey to stay off your shoulder is like Joe said you are going to have to be consistent. So you can't say let him on your shoulder one day and the next go back to trying to train him. From what I read of your message but I could have misunderstood,you really don't mind having him there, maybe you even enjoy it somewhat? but what like to be able to hold him at times.

If Bailey were my bird I would use the shoulder thing to my advantage to gain more of his trust, I would offer the fresh foods to him maybe even try and give him a scritch here and there once he starts getting more settled. I wouldn't push him especially with the scritches but I think Bailey just feels secure there right now. I had a cockatiel that did the same exact thing, he would flutter to my shoulder like something was trying to eat him. I couldn't give him scritches either but slowly I was able to use my nose, give him a quick kiss and then I was able to use me hands and now he will sit on my hand and curl up next to me and I can give him scritches and really only flies to my shoulder whne he is scared. It took time but I think I slowly gained his trust. I don't know if something like this would work with Bailey or not but I'm just sharing the experience I had. I would then work on the shoulder thing but they are right also it's much easier to break a habit right away then further down the road.

I personally don't believe in the dominance theory but that's just me too:D I think you do have to be very selective about which birds you let on your shoulder for your own safety.

Everyone go easy on me now!;)

gregt

05-04-2005, 01:12 PM

harley,

Thanks for the alternate viewpoint. He does feel much more comfortable up there and he will let me "nuzzle" him with my head and even snuggles closer when I do. But he also scoots right to the back of the neck to avoid us when we try to get him off.... I can get him to step up on a dowel while he's on my shoulder, but he'll be back on my shoulder within a minute after doing so. ;)

At any rate, I think sharing contrary opinions is a good thing. If nothing else it gives the "opposition" specifics to discuss the counter arguments too. :)

Whichever side I end up on, I understand what I'm doing best when I've heard both sides of an issue.

harleybaby

05-04-2005, 01:29 PM

Greg, maybe you can Vicki can work together on the step ups off the shoulder using the sunflower seeds. Even if you have to use the stick at first, stick training is always good. Like Sadeena suggested too I would clip his wings and try and work on step ups holding him as far away from your body as possible so he can't just jump on your shoulder. He may flutter to the ground but that's ok too. If he tries to run up your arm just block him like in Shirley's pictures. Most birds will willingly step up from the ground. He'll start to see you as his savior from the big bad ground and it will also get him used to being on your hand and a little more comfortable there. I would try and make being off your shoulder as fun as possible, lots of treats are alwasy good so it's a positive experience for him and something he doesn't recieve when he is on your shoulder. If this has been discussed already, I'm sorry. I read most of teh thread but I have to admit I didn't read all of it. Good luck with your Bailey boy!!:D I think whatvever you decide will be good for you because you love the little guy.

Shirley

05-04-2005, 01:33 PM

Shelby and Skyler are always on Steve's shoulder and he's never been bit by them in an aggressive way... that said, I don't like it when they get on strangers' shoulders. Shelby insists, though, and she hasn't bit anyone ever -- yet. She has bit me and made my finger bleed when I tried to get her OFF someone's shoulder, though, b/c she wanted to stay with the new person! (sigh) At least she didn't bite them. It was like, but mommy! I like this person!

She never rode on my shoulder... sorry, she's our least potty-trained bird and I have long hair! She never even tries to get on my shoulder. She does with everyone else.

I don't think anyone should be criticized for their shoulder choices; they should just be aware of possible consequences.

Also, we've yet to have a bird of ours display dominance because of being higher than we are. Shelby is more full of herself when she's fully flighted, but not because she's higher than we are. That is just me speaking for our three large birds. Shelby will be 4 in July.

I too have trained and obedience trained many dogs, mainly Dobermans, Greg. Whole different ballgame. I've also trained a few horses from the ground up.

With birds, it's a LOT of love and a lot of patience in a much different way than with dogs. Not that dogs don't get all the love and patience, but dogs and horses -- there's a lot more "hands-on, firm correction, firm voice", it's just different. I can correct Holly now with my voice in ways I'd NEVER have corrected her the first YEAR, especially the first 8 months, of her life. Greys can become phobic very easily, and you sure don't want to have to try to break through that kind of fear! The first year of her life was all about trust, trust, and more trust, and letting her know if she hurt me, without scaring her, startling her, intimidating her.

I would say playing on the bed, playing on the floor, the table, working with step up, just forget about trying to carry Bailey around for now, ignore the whole shoulder issue for now, take baby steps and do floor play or bed-play for now. Once he learns step-up to your hand (not a single finger stuck out, but your fingers all together so there's more for him to stand on... ) a step-up stick if he's afraid of your hand at first. And use "step-up" and then good boy+treat immediately when he does it.

Try step-up from the small T-stand like in the video instead of from a flat surface; he'll be less likely to walk away from you. Once he steps up to a step-up stick (another "T" stick) and learns the command word, then he'll be more likely to do this to your hand. Big celebration then!

Steve has held his hand palm up with treats in it for Michelle (new wild red-belly parrot) during a TV show and said Step-up and she spends the hour while he watches the show, his hand resting on the arm of his easy chair, her cage door flopped open flat to the arm of the chair (it opens like a drawbridge gate) and she carefully steps around and finally steps up on his hand to get the treats and then he speaks real softly to her about how good she is. Now she'll step up on his hand on command about 75% of the time with no treats offered. She knows the words Step-up and isn't biting as hard at all, but we got her on 4/10 and that's how long he's been working with her every night while he watches TV.

Shirley

05-04-2005, 01:41 PM

At any rate, I think sharing contrary opinions is a good thing. If nothing else it gives the "opposition" specifics to discuss the counter arguments too. :)

Whichever side I end up on, I understand what I'm doing best when I've heard both sides of an issue.

I agree 100%, and we do want to foster that here. We don't want any of our members to hesitate to share their experiences, viewpoints, or what works for them. How else can we learn, pick, choose, sort through, etc? Or even make an intelligent choice or decision that they feel works best for them in their circumstances?

THANKS Leah! And Joe! And Sadenna! And everyone else!

gregt

05-04-2005, 01:43 PM

Oh horse training. Now that is tough stuff. I've re-trained a couple horses that were prior trained and were left go for several years. That was hard. I'll never go through that again. Puts the struggles I had with jack in perspective though. LOL At least Jack can't bite your neck when you're looking the other way. :funny: ow

Your post confirms what my gut feelings were. I just can't see a bird taking to the methods I've used with dogs.

I think we need to back off and play with him some more to build some trust.

Thanks again, Joe and harley and everybody else. Please continue to share if you think of other pertinent comments.

Joe

05-04-2005, 01:44 PM

Greg,

Have you seen any pix of what a bird can do when they bite? Even a smaller bird can do damage to a fleshy area like an ear or the face. I have seen some nasty pix of people who required plastic surgery from severe bites. I can understand that a new bird can be overwhelming. I recommend that you read as much as possible and keep asking questions!

gregt

05-04-2005, 01:46 PM

Joe, all I have to do is look down at my hands right now to see what they can do. ;)

Bailey has given me quite the chomp more than once already.

gregt

05-04-2005, 01:51 PM

http://www.thebirdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2912#post2912

Shirley

05-04-2005, 02:13 PM

OK, you got it. That's how I would have said it...

However, when Dr. Cook, my avian vet, was over for a home visit with Skyler one day, she was playing with Shelby, and Bare-eyed's have a rep for being a bit nippy and very playful, a bit hyper at times. She was sitting at the dining room table and Shelby was hopping all over the table being as cute as she could be, bringing things to Dr. Cook, b/c she had just taught her to do so with the clicker. So, Shelby wanted to bring her EVERYTHING on the table!

Well, she got so excited that she gently grabbed at Dr. Cook's finger. IMO, not a bite. However, Dr. Cook immediately said, No Bite, and turned her back on Shelby and looked completely the other way. Boy was Shelby visibly shocked! She knows what No Bite! means. We say it when she sends us through the ceiling! Well, Dr. Cook said it when she tugged at her finger. I looked quizzically at her and said nothing. About a count to ten later, with Shelby saying in her sweeeeeeetest voice Hi Shelby Hi Sheellllby! Dr. Cook turned around and asked her, "Are you going to play nicely now?" Shelby:" Hmmmmmmmm???" and their play continued. The nip happened again. The behavior from Dr. Cook repeated. etc. again. And then Shelby never nipped again... for another hour of play NO PLAY NIP! OMG!!! big lesson for me! I never thought of stopping the nips THAT early in the game! Well, I guess, why wait til you're bleeding?

I asked her about it later. She said, "first of all, when you have a Moluccan, you don't wait 'til you've been bit hard to teach the bird not to bite. 2ndly, why wait until the bird is that upset?" Good point.

So, with Holly, she isn't allowed to even barely nip me. And she knows it. She has a POWERFUL beak. She reached up one time and pierced the ball of "meat" on my chin. Now that HURT like you wouldn't believe!!! She did it b/c I was talking to the boys while holding her... and I was talking too long to them IN HER OPINION... and she was being held low, but she reached up and made a pierce just above and just below that meaty area of my chin... man did that hurt! And I let her know it! She all but apologized in parrot language, too... she was extra nice all day and just kept bowing her head and saying "hello" in her nicest voice. I think she really was sorry. She hasn't pulled that one again. That was last Christmas; she was 18 mos old.

vmtwriter

05-06-2005, 11:18 AM

We had fun playtime with Bailey yesterday. He hasn't quite figured out what the toys are for yet, :confused: but I'm sure he will after we give him some time with them.

It was fun for us as well. :emot-danc We weren't in "training" mode and were more relaxed which I think kept Bailey more relaxed. He did pull his fly to the shoulder stunt when he got bored and wanted to stop.

I think maybe he needs another flight feather or two cut. :eek:

gregt

05-06-2005, 12:42 PM

I dunno. The more we play with him the more I think he's very wild and not at all used to people and it's going to take a long time to make any progress with him. That's ok though. :)

Shirley

05-06-2005, 12:44 PM

Good for you! Just play then and keep it fun! If you want to wait I'll do his flights when I come down. I'll show you how if you want. We'll bring the nail clippers and dremel and show you all that stuff, too. We'll just leave our birds' nails "ungroomed" and do them at your house! (lucky them!) Does Bailey have little tiny nails or big sharp ones?

gregt

05-06-2005, 12:44 PM

Come to think of it, if he were an escapee from Busch gardens he probably didn't have a lot of one on one time out of the cage. The birds they keep have thousands of people pass their cages every day but they stay in their cages. Might explain his behaviour patterns...

Shirley

05-06-2005, 12:46 PM

That very well could be, and could be why he's afraid of hands... all they did was vet-check and groom him, perhaps... but once he starts to figure out play and fun, he'll make progress by leaps and bounds... :emot-danc

vmtwriter

05-06-2005, 04:22 PM

Yep, it's looking more and more like Bailey is a runaway bird from Busch Gardens. We're just gonna have to show him what fun is all about.

Shirley, Bailey's nails are small and thin.

Junkzoo

05-06-2005, 08:54 PM

I ditto that Greg and Vicki, i think he was a bird from Busch,or along those lines,
He's showed not really "wild" qualities IMO, just a Sun acting sorta normal, on the low,less friendly scale end...
I'm quessing that he was one of those birds, they left 'fly' around, and hanging around in a area,to interact with the public, just friendly enuf to be with people, smart (untrained) enuf to leave if things got too close for them,seeing the way you describe he's acting. friendly ,but "aloof",,,The time i was at Busch, i seemed to remember birds that acted like this, friendly to a point, but not "lovey-dovey" like we think of trained, socialized birds should be.That and the fact that he's been "wild" since whenever took him away from where he was,,,
(you guys do have wind around your ways, right? LOL:funny: ) and gave him the behavior you are experiencing with him now,,,
Just my take of things, could be wrong,,,,,:shrug2:

Junkzoo

05-06-2005, 09:10 PM

. We'll bring the nail clippers and dremel and show you all that stuff, too.

So Shirley, you are pretty good with a Dremel,,,,huh?,,,:idea: :idea: hmmm,,,,,:scratchch

Shirley

05-06-2005, 10:30 PM

Yeah, Steve won't do it, and it's a lot better than clippers all the way around, in the bird's opinion and in mine. Steve will hold, but he will not cut, clip, dremel, pull, none of that. The thought of a possible drop of blood and he's ghost white and on the floor! :help:

Shirley

05-06-2005, 10:32 PM

So what's your idea.... you bringing all your birds down?? If you hold, I'll dremel! Lasts a LOT longer than a clipped nail... nice and smooth, too!

Jean

05-07-2005, 01:30 AM

Junkzoo

05-07-2005, 10:30 AM

So what's your idea.... you bringing all your birds down?? If you hold, I'll dremel! Lasts a LOT longer than a clipped nail... nice and smooth, too!

ALL of them? :doh: Not sure that's practical/possible,,with a regular cab pickup,,,(wishing i got a extended cab more every day!:doh: )
Gumby, my BFA,in his nicer, younger days used to ride on my shoulder(i know) when i'd tool around in my Jeep i had,,those days are over,i'm afraid.

I always prefer to have someone else do Sinbad's nails/wings,,tends to hold a grudge towards me for a while after,,,but i hold him,he hates that a lil less IMO,

Nah, think i'll be coming down solo,as i have i think only one Vari-Kennel at my disposal,(4 doxies took up all the others i had,,LOL)

gregt

05-09-2005, 07:21 AM

I think we're making a little progress. I was able to get Bailey to step up to my hand a few times yesterday. I spent a lot of time keeping my hand near him. He wasn't happy about it but like i said, by the end he did step up relatively calmly.

Now the bad news. I couldn't keep him on my hand. At first he tried to run to my shoulder, but I kept him from doing that. So then he would flap back to the perch. Once I figured out to get him away from the perch quicker then he started just taking off for anywhere away from me.

But, it was still a definite improvement. No biting at all. He "pinched" me once, but it wasn't even painful. When I see him going to bite, I just say "hey" in a firm voice and he stops right away - so far anyway. ;)

He doesn't seem to freak out as much as I expected too when I touch him. A few times when I was retrieving him from somewhere he had flapped off to he tried to jump off my hand again and I would use my other hand to shield him from begin able to spread his wings and he didn't seem to mind that much. I'll bet someone that's used to working with birds could handle him a lot better. We'll get there though.

Majj

05-09-2005, 08:37 AM

I love reading of your achievements..Baily looks so cheeky in the picture on your avatar ...You have brought him a long way in such a short time , don`t think its easy birds are still wild by nature a long long way from being truely domesticated like the cats and dogs .....I kind of like their independant natures , I prefer a fid come to me because he wanted to than to dominate and have them afraid of me ... Your little Baily will trust you more and more over time ...and you will love him more and more also , those little feathers can wrap you right around them ....
Keep up the good work ...
Hugs to Bailey he is a beautiful boy...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v373/Maj/Gifs%20and%20siggys/ConureMajj.jpg

Shirley

05-09-2005, 09:44 AM

Hi Greg ~ This post you wrote this morning sounds EXACTLY like the progress and the tactics Steve is / has been using and is making with Michelle! She's stepping up better all the time. Finally, yesterday, I was able to manage her.
She stepped up many time for ME! :) We had her outside and in the house out of her cage and she stepped up on command for me and didn't bite me more than one time hard, and only pinched Steve. We cup our hands around to keep them from fly-hopping away, too.

This is great ~ Keep it up -- super! Michelle really enjoyed her day outside this time more, too. You could tell she was more relaxed b/c she was less concerned with hands and getting away from them. Like you and Bailey, she's always like Steve more than his hand.